"British Army's Entire Force Of Hundreds Of Tanks And" Topic

…Armoured Vehicles May Be Scrapped.

"The British Army's entire force of hundreds of tanks and armoured vehicles could be scrapped under sweeping modernisation plans.

The UK's Challenger II main battle tanks and Warrior infantry fighting vehicles are said to be at risk because of swingeing budget cuts expected to follow the coronvirus crisis.

The cost of upgrading the heavy armour and a desire to switch military focus to modern threats like cyberwarfare could see the battlefield heavies put out to pasture, little more than 100 years after they were invented…"

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Amicalement
Armand

Wow! That seems to have come out of the blue.

They wouldn't be the first NATO state to do this – Belgium has got rid of all their heavy equipment and Netherlands sold all their tanks and has one training company embedded in a German unit.

Though using Russians numbers is ridiculous as most of those are rusting away in open air "storage."

Hmmmm, "modernizing"???

Seems more like returning to the stone age in the "armored warfare" arena.

Anyone with some surplus T-34s could reign supreme (that's an exaggeration of course, but it does seem like a pretty dire, and unwise move).

I don't think the UK really use tanks anymore, they last got a run out in Iraq (2003ish). The Challenger 2 is fairly elderly now too and we only have 200 odd left in service.

Sensibly given the state of the UK, we may as well run down our military, we don't need and can't afford a large armed forces anyway (not that we'd last five minutes against any world player anymore).

The UK is in a state of flux, we are already massively in debt due to the ongoing coronavirus situation, likely to have to pay for long term financial stimulus as a result of leaving the EU, and we are likely to see Scotland becoming independent within the next few years.

Tanks are about the last thing we can afford at the moment.

The USMC is doing the same … I do think it is a bad idea for both the UK and USMC.

But as always … don't worry the US Army has plenty of MBTs. If need be can pull out both their bacons out of the fire when the hits the fan.

Modern armies fight Combines Arms, even in insurgencies. Without Tanks you are missing a key player in that equation, IMO …

There is probably an element of political ideology driving this – though if it survives lobbying from the domestic defence industry remains to be seen.

A couple of independent armoured brigades to keep our hand in, so to speak, and give us some flexibility of response would seem sensible.

Yep, you don't need tanks, until you do….

Glup!….

Amicalement
Armand

What could possibly go wrong with this strategy?

I guess, as long as they're prepared to blow the Chunnels when needed, AND can fend off amphibious landings, and/or airdrops they'll be fine.

Just curious, how many tanks, landing ships, and paratroopers do the Spanish have?

The Armada anniversary is right around the corner, relatively speaking.

Then, of course, there's the centuries old history with the French.

"a desire to switch military focus to modern threats like cyberwarfare"

That might work against the tanks in BattleZone, if your country is being invaded by video game arcades… ;-)

But back in the real world, no one is threatening to invade the UK. And if they did what point would there be in trying to oppose it with 200 odd elderly MBTs?

The UK isn't a superpower, never was and lacks the population, funds and materiel to last even five minutes against any superpower.

The Cold War/Cold War 2 has little to do with genuine threat, it's like professional wrestling, lots of big men threatening each other on the surface, but behind the scenes its all quite carefully choreographed to make sure there is no serious damage. It is effectively a useful way for superpowers to justify high spending on military assets, but also has its roots in national identity and patriotism.

The UK lacks a cohesive national identity, patriotism is frowned upon and we've got limited cash for weaponry. Hence cuts in the size and form of the armed forces.

no one is threatening to invade the UK. And if they did what point would there be in trying to oppose it with 200 odd elderly MBTs?

Churchill is rolling over in his grave I'd imagine.

Again, NATO fights combined arms … albeit many of some of its older members seem to be downsizing. Not being able to afford a key member of the Combined Arms Tm, seems shortsighted, IMO. We'd jump with a reserve chute, just in case. For obvious reasons … It's only logical …

But again the US Army has plenty of MBTs, IFVs, etc., hopefully they will get to the UK, Western Europe in time … 🤔

A couple of independent armoured brigades to keep our hand in, so to speak, and give us some flexibility of response would seem sensible.

Yep, you don't need tanks, until you do….

Seems more like returning to the stone age in the "armored warfare" arena.

Yes … agree with all of those comments … 👍👍

I don't think the UK really use tanks anymore,

I wonder/hope if those thinking like that are willing to make and use Molotovs to takeout enemy AFVs if need be … 😁

I wonder/hope if those thinking like that are willing to make and use Molotovs to takeout enemy AFVs if need be … 😁

That rather assumes we can afford the petrol….
Or indeed have petrol anymore!

Britain is an island so the likelihood of an invasion is low and I can see why tanks are considered to be expendable compared to ships.

As long as Britain doesn't plan on contributing tanks in a US-led coalition in some misguided military adventure such as we've seen in the ME, she'll be alright.

Sometimes you can't have all the toys you want.

I expect tanks will go the way of the battleship, another hugely expensive British innovation.

By the way why are people going on about the UK being invaded? It could happen, but is seems rather unlikely, why would anyone bother? We don't have anything anyone would want, no natural resources unless tin mining takes off again so I think we're quite safe.

"By the way why are people going on about the UK being invaded?".

Used to be a regular tradition, back in the day, attempted, or otherwise.

The UK has never been successfully invaded. 1066 was long before the UK existed.

These days, any power with the means to invade the UK could buy it for much less.

Current UK government have been running down the military and will continue to do so. Scrapping the armoured units is just the next logical step.

There may be a case for reorienting UK defences to face more credible threats, but this is just about money.

That rather assumes we can afford the petrol….
Or indeed have petrol anymore!

Very true !!!! 😁

As long as Britain doesn't plan on contributing tanks in a US-led coalition in some misguided military adventure such as we've seen in the ME, she'll be alright.

Yes that is one consideration I was thinking about … Hopefully we won't do anymore military adventures … but I would not bet the farm on it …

I expect tanks will go the way of the battleship, another hugely expensive British innovation.

Not just yet, IMO … As a former Infantryman being frequently attached to Tank Bns. We liked having them around. They didn't even have to fire their weapons in some cases. They could just run the enemy over. Happened in both Iraq and A'stan, AFAIK.

It could happen, but is seems rather unlikely, why would anyone bother?

Homemade Fish & Chips ?

Scrapping the armoured units is just the next logical step.

Until you need AFVs for combat. A situation not yet know, but still as noted it could happen. Albeit the probability is most likely small. I'm sure many thought the same about Pearl Harbor, 9/11, etc., etc.

but this is just about money.

Always has been … always will be … The bottom line is still … the bottom line …

But as very well put by ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa

Yep, you don't need tanks, until you do….

If we think warfare is going to go the way of the dinos 🦕🦖 anytime soon … and AFVs & Infantry are not going to be useful that may be wishful thinking. [Break out the rose colored glasses 👓]

I think like has happened in the past … many nations in Europe or NATO are thinking the US may come in again "and save the day" so to speak … may not be a viable option in the short run.

Actually the UK has been invaded several times post-1066. Just not necessarily by foreigners and on some occasions by invitation!

I'm fairly certain that tanks and indeed APC/IFVs will remain useful – we even took light armour to the Falklands which I'm fairly sure even the most ardent tank enthusiast wouldn't call 'tank country'. I think the real question is do we need to engage in a tank 'death spiral' or just buy something that will do the job! Even going up against China or Russia a lot of their tanks fleets are based on vehicles dating from the back end of the Cold War. I assume we're not intending to start a war with the EU – Leo's or the US – Abrams?

Basically its the UK tax problem again.

Yeah pretty sure the UK, US and EU will stay buddies …

Well, We HAVE bought US armour before, LOL!
Just, so long as we DO have the kit.
And, PLEASE! DO NOT SELL FOR SCRAP…(doubt many buyers 2H or they would have bought already! :( ).
Equipment does deteriorate in storage, but we may NEVER get the chance to 'tool' up to manufacture heavy armour again, if needed…same with so many other weapons systems. :(

As for the UK being invaded…'PROBABLY' not…BUT…
We are not in the EU anymore…and we have been here before, finding where the desire for a 'European State' led…several times.

There is also the horrifying 'possibility', that, given 'incentives' from 'other powers'…(who CAN be rather good at that sort of thing…'trade' deals, political coercion, etc.) … and, given their already shown desire to 'obstruct' UK Government to their own wishes, Scottish/Irish Nationalist parties COULD send Us All back to the 1700s. I So hope not, but…

(Oh, well,I maybe dead by then… the 'Cold War didn't 'HEAT', either…just do not bank on things…they CAN change…and very quickly! :( ).

The UK now NEEDS a 'Beefed Up' Military, NOT a reduction. :(

UK may not have been successfully invaded in a long time but they are part of NATO, which is increasingly a purely US run show with the rest of the alliance contributing virtually nothing meaningful.

If the UK military scraps its armour, that is a massive chunk of NATO's European armoured contribution gone.

And even though the Challenger IIs and Warriors are Old, they are still more modern and capable than much of the other alliance members.

And tanks certainly aren't obsolete – look at Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq – all conflicts where they play a useful role.

Note the tanks aren't going to be replaced with anything that makes the British more potent. RAF and RN are shrinking too l. Even much vaunted UCAVs are acquired in pitifully low numbers.

Truth is West is sliding into insignificance and with that comes military impotence.

I think the basic truth is that in the absence of a conflict that posed a true existential threat in majority living memory or a clear opposing power block. All democracies will tend towards towards minimising the tax burden on the electorate and maximising spend on stuff that the electorate cares about (and that tends not be tanks!).

I'd also make the observation that most minor-power dictatorships aren't building capable armies – just ones big enough to make 'regime change' look like a messy enterprise or going hell for leather for nukes.

Based on what tanks are tending to be used for in the current low intensity conflicts are I'd posit that you might be as well cracking out Bovington's collection of assault guns.

The UK now NEEDS a 'Beefed Up' Military, NOT a reduction.

NATO, which is increasingly a purely US run show with the rest of the alliance contributing virtually nothing meaningful.

Sadly very true …

If the UK military scraps its armour, that is a massive chunk of NATO's European armoured contribution gone.

And even though the Challenger IIs and Warriors are Old, they are still more modern and capable than much of the other alliance members.

And tanks certainly aren't obsolete – look at Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq – all conflicts where they play a useful role.

Agree on all points … The French, Germans and Italians have armor/mech forces too. But again not that much in the event of a real war, I'd think. Some of these current figures are absolutely frightening based on what they in the past, etc. link Check out the link – Russia has twice as many Tanks as the USA.

North Korea has almost as many as the US …

France = 528
Germany = 245
UK = 227
Italy = 200

Truth is West is sliding into insignificance and with that comes military impotence.

Again, sad but very true …

Minor correction – French have 406 tanks of which 222 are operational and remainder is in storage.

They do have wheeled recce combat vehicles ala AMX10 RC but these aren't even close to a tank.

French also no longer operate tracked APCs or IFVs of any sort. They are all wheeled high profile things designed for COIN.

They are replacing tracked fully enclosed SPGs with wheeled CAESAR SPGs which require the crew to be outside of the vehicle to find the gun.

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Rest of NATO tank force us a mixed bag:

- most numerous tank are Leopard 2s of various configurations from obsolete and disproved in Syria 2A4 to more modern 2A6 and very rarely 2A7.

- T-72s and derivatives are still widely used but in most cases are obsolecent with low serviceability and capability.

- Turkey and Greece still maintain large numbers of M48s and M60s upgraded to various standards.

- Romania still operates T-55 derivative as only tank.

The bulk of Europe's tank pool is obsolete and usually of 1980s vintage.

Only country that is buying new build tanks in Europe is Hungary which is acquiring a batallion of Leo 2A7s to replace ancient T-72s.

French have 406 tanks of which 222 are operational and remainder is in storage.

Didn't know that ! So the NATO numbers are even smaller …

Interestingly the PRC only has about 3500 MBTs …

French also no longer operate tracked APCs or IFVs of any sort. They are all wheeled high profile things designed for COIN.

The French Grunts are going to have to ride on the back of MBTs, insert by helicopter or parachute … or as always do a lot of walking …

Also there is another chart for APCs/IFVs/AFVs/other than MBTs … link

The problem with those charts are:

1. We don't know what goes into them. Eg an MRAP isn't even close to an IFV.

And for many of those countries it is purely MRAPs. Eg Albania's Tank/IFV/APC/AFV force consists of armoured Humvees, Italian HUMVEE equivalents made by IVECO and MRAPS.

2. I doubt those are operational numbers.

Very often third world states or arms reporters will report nonoperational equipment in their holdings.

I remember seeing pictures of rusty Bosnian trucks with trees growing out of them that were being reported in operational pools.

That is really the problem/situation with most charts, etc. E.g. every day in the US Army all units had to turn in a Fully Mission Capable Report to Higher HQ. Going all the way up to the JCS. Which shows exactly how many vehicles are FMC and in turn deployable. Every vehicle also had to be topped off with fuel by day's end/EOB.

E.g. So as Mech Inf (M113) Co. Cdr we pushed to have as much FMC daily as possible. Along with the Bn and Bde staff that were responsible for collecting, etc. all that information. Then sending it up the chain.

[Sadly !] I was both a Mech Bn then Mech Hvy Bde Maint Officer. But like many staff positions it is important for the Bn Cdrs on up to know if we go to war today. How many of their AFVs, etc. are available for combat.

So that figure could/would change daily. It was a "snapshot" for that moment in time. Giving Higher a fairly good idea how many "pieces they have on the board". At his disposal to go to war if need be …

Interestingly the PRC only has about 3500 MBTs …

The PLA went for "quality over quantity" in their modernization program. The days of the gung-ho human wave attacks are over:

YouTube link

As I said, they are only really a threat to those that border them. But I'll believe the PRC has improved their tactics when I see it. Their strength is in their numbers/bodies. But I will keep an open mind …

Now the Top 3 MBT numbers:

Russia – 12950

USA – 6289

North Korea – 6045

The 3,350 tally only includes the PLA's "top line" equipment, namely the Type-99 (850) and Type-96 (2,500) MBT's which comprise approximately 50 percent of their inventory. If you count their low-end equipment (cannon-fodder) they have the second largest tank force (6,900-strong) in the world:

link

Good point, but again, they rely on numbers …

The biggest operational tanks forces in NATO aren't the major players (UK, Germany, France, Italy). And what's interesting is that they are largely even more obsolete than the Challenger 2s!

They are:

-Turkey – 3029
- 342 Leopard 2A4 (another 12 destroyed in Syria)
- 397 Leopard I
- 1532 M60 Patton in various configurations (not sure if this includes tanks destroyed in Syria).
- 758 M48 Patton in various configurations.

Operational assignments are hard to figure out as the Turkish Army is in a state of flux, still quite secretive and rather large – it has 8 Corps (most are divisional sized but there are 5 separate divisions as well, one separate Corp size command in Cyprus, 8 Armoured Brigades, 17 Mechanised Brigades (which would usually be assigned a battalion of tanks) etc

-Greece – 1355 in 17 tank battalions
- 353 Leopard 2 including 183 modern Leopard 2A6
- 501 Leopard I
- 400 M48 Patton
- 101 M60 Patton

- Poland – 863 in 12 tank battalions
- 249 Leopard 2A4/2A5. 2A4s are being modernised. Equip 4 tank battalions
- 409 PT-91. Polish modernised version of T-72. Approaching obsolescence and in need of upgrade. Equip 3 tank battalions
-382 T-72s of various models. All obsolete. Equip 5 tank batallions

Romania – 717 (not all operational)
– 54 TR-85M1 (upgraded indigenous T-55 version) – (Equip 1 battalion)
- 215 TR-85 (indigenous T-55 version of dubious quality) – (Equip 2 battalion)
- 395 T-55 tanks of various versions, not all of which are operational. (Equip 2 battalion

Also noteworthy is Spain:

Spain – 334 tanks
- 219 Leopard 2A6 equivalent Equip 4 armoured battalion and 4 armoured cavalry groups
- 108 Leopard 2A4 of which 54 are in reserve Equip 2 armoured cavalry groups
-17 M60A3 TTS assigned to Spanish Marines.

Spanish operational fleet is bigger than that of France (222 operational), Italy (200 operational) and UK (226 operational).

Other states:

Albania – 0

Belgium – 0

Bulgaria – 160 T-72A/M2 in actual reserve and several hundred withdrawn from service. At present no operational units!

Croatia – 72 M-84 (T-72 variant) – only 48 operational, remainder to be placed in reserve or disposed of Equip 1 battalion

Czech Republic – 30 T-72M4 + a further 90 non upgraded T-72. Only 30 tanks are operational with major spares shortages and obsolescence issues. Equip 1 battalion

Denmark – 57 Leopard 2A5 being upgaded to 2A6. Equip 1 battalion

Estonia – 0

Hungary – 34 T-72M1 (+ some in reserve) – being replaced by 44 new Leopard 2A7 and 12 Leopard 2A4. Equip 1 battalion

Netherlands – 0

Norway – 52 Leopard 2A4. Only about 36 operational Equip 2 separate squadrons in 2 mechanised battalions

Latvia – 0

Lithuania – 0

Monte Negro – 0

Portugal – 37 Leopard 2A6 operational. Equip 1 battalion 90 M60A3s were held in reserve but are being sold for scrap.

Slovakia – 20-30 T-72M1 Equip 1 battalion

Slovenia – 14 operational M84 in one training company. 32 M84 + 30 upgraded T-55 in reserve.

Total European tank pool – c.8439 tanks

- 1801 Leopard 2 though 823 (46%) are older 2A4 models proven vulnerable in Syria. Not all are operational.
- 1650 M60 – all obsolete
- 1219 T-72/PT91/M84 – mainly obsolete and about 409 modernised ones approaching obsolescence.
- 1158 M48 – all obsolete
- 898 Leopard I – all obsolete
- 747 T-55/TR85 – all obsolete
- 360 Challenger 2 (48 other converted to Driver Training Tanks which have no combat capability as whole turret is gutted). Only 226 operational
- 406 Leclerc – Only 222 operational
- 200 Ariete

Number of modern tanks – 1944
Modern tanks as % of total tank pool 23%

Number of totally obsolete tanks is depressing – excluding Polish PT-91s, the number of thoroughly obsolete tanks is 5246 T-55/T-72/M48/M60/Leopard I or 62% of total tank pool.

Conclusions
- Most NATO countries tank pools are thoroughly obsolete.

- Save Hungary there are no current tank procurement processes. Only Norway has a plan to replace their older Leo 2A4s in 2020s.

- Most modernisation of older tanks were conducted 20+ years ago and based on older 1990s technology.

- NATO European tank numbers will collapse over coming years as older systems are withdrawn and probably without replacement.

- Removing Challenger 2 would reduce pool of modern European NATO tanks by a whopping 19%. Overall modern tank numbers in European pool would drop from 23% to 19%.

- Note countries are not procuring other systems to replace capabilities lost if tanks are retired. There is no increase in procurement of aircraft, helicopters, UAVs or artillery/MLRS. In fact all those systems are also being reduced in number or are stagnant.

Even UAVs and UCAVs have not been adopted en masse by Europe other than Turkey which has embraced UCAVS en masse in its various wars.

Other than Turkey, only European states that have UCAVs are UK (10 x MQ-9) and Italy (6 MQ-9 of which 1 crashed over Libya). Other European users of MQ-1/-9s as well as other UAVs use them in ISTAR roles only.

We laugh at the Russians whilst ignoring the fact that NATO is increasingly toothless.

Yes I saw similar numbers on those links. I'd say a pretty good breakdown in that post.

But even "obsolete"/older MBTs in the hands of well trained, experienced crews with good leadership. But of course that is the rub.

Plus some nations are more concerned about their "neighbors" than the Russians, e.g. Greece and their traditional enemy Turkey. Regardless of their NATO status.

Also I'm sure Putin is very upset with the Poles being in NATO. And having a Bde sized unit or so of US troops in Poland along the Russian Border.

We laugh at the Russians whilst ignoring the fact that NATO is increasingly toothless.

Probably true … but the Russians are in no shape to start WWIII. With few to no allies and NATO growing in members. Albeit many NATO members are downsizing their militaries. So I guess they are relying on the US to show up as in WWI and WWII to help/support Western Europe. Or if WWIII broke out, which is a whole other topic.

IMO NATO and will most likely never go to war with Russia [or even China!]. But certainly should be prepared for it. Which again is the rub.

As we see in the current geopolitical situation, fighting 3d World insurgencies seems to be the current trend.