"Turkey vs Greece at Sea - Orbats?" Topic

With the current tensions at sea, it is interesting to consider the naval (and aviation) resources of Turkey vs Greece (and possible France, NATO, Russia!).

Is there an interesting naval wargame in all this?

(And of course, let's wish the situation is resolved peacefully in real life.)

No, Turkey is easily superior to Greece on land, sea or air. Only chance Greece would have in an armed conflict would be of the rest of NATO (US) reacted on their side and that will not happen.

Don't know about Greece, but Germany sold an awful lot of Cold War era missile boats to the Turks at the end of the Cold War, and/or afterwards.

Don't know if they're serviceable, but if so, they would be formidable indeed, and ideal for battle in and around "the Greek Isles". Of course, they'll need aircover too, so that should be interesting for both sides as well.

Check Wikipedia for current force levels.

Certainly very many, interesting, wargaming scenarios, and possible real-world skirmishes, there, and over Cyprus too.

I agree, NATO probably won't step in, but the USA just might, if the Turks go on jihad.

Dan Cyr, dunno about air – huge number of F-16 pilots were purged after last coup attempt which hampered operations so badly several F-16 squadrons were deactivated.

All numbers from Scramble which tracks aircraft based on serials.

Turkey has a numerical advantage and better multipliers in the air but as stated above has suffered purges and also apparently US has been denying sales for last two years.

link

Greek Air Force – 229 fighters
33 X F-4E – all upgraded
154 X F-16
42 X Mirage 2000

Supported by AWACS squadron

Turkish Air Force -276 fighters
43 X F-4E – all upgraded
233 X F-16

Supported by AWACS (powerful E-7) and aerial refuelling squadron with KC-135s.

Air defences are harder to assess but here are systems in use.

Greek Air Defences – key components
MIM-104 Patriot
MIM-23B Improved Hawk
9M33 Osa (SA-8)
S300PMU (SA-10)
Crotale

Turkish Air Defences -medium-long range componnents
S400
MIM-23B Improved Hawk
HISAR (domestic system – no idea of capabilities)
Rapier

Greek Navy
11 x Submarines – including 4 ultra modern Type 214
13 x frigates (3000-4000 tons)
19 x fast attack craft – light ships equipped with anti-shipping missiles

Turkish Navy
12 x submarines
16 x frigates (3000-4000 tons) – including number of Oliver Hazard Perry class
10 x corvettes (1300 – 2500 tons)
19 x FAC

The Greeks hold a theoretical massive advantage in submarine warfare with those 214s

Turkey has the migrant weapon they can send to Europe as they please plus the various Terrorist organizations of the day they can manipulate directly or indirectly. These can be serious hindrances to its opponents.

The Greeks also have French support…

There is a game called Aegean Strike from Victory Games from back in the 80s that does have a pretty good Greek vs. Turkey scenario in it. Several gamers are also hoping that GMT's Next War series covers this topic sometime soon as that system would be ideal for this type of conflict.

The geography in the area doesn't do Turkey any favors and it will allow the Greek forces to defend their territory much easier than if there was one long continuous border. The Greek air force and navy should be able to give a good accounting of itself, but both sides don't get in a lot of practice time or exercises, so no one really knows how they will perform in a real war.

It may be time to see if my old W3.1 copy of "Harpoon" can be made to run in emulation.

First-rate nations usually average about 60% – 65% aircraft serviceability.

2nd rate and lower are about 50% or lower, so I'd rate the Greeks about 50% for convenience.

Give the Turks about a 30% rating, since they have larger numbers of aircraft, but fewer pilots and probably ground-crew personnel, and/or leaders after the purges. They'll have lower morale and pilot experience due to the above, too.

That makes their numbers for F-16s and F-4s about even for each side, though the Greeks do get the Mirages as a bonus.

You can probably use those ratings for their vessels too, and that also evens the numbers of those up rather nicely as well, which your players will appreciate.

We have covered quantity, but do the Greeks have a qualitative edge in training?

SPI Task Force!!

I don't know, since I'm not up to speed on training regimes for either nation's pilots.

My guess is they may be similar, since Greece doesn't have a lot of money, and Turkey's leader is probably too afraid to let many fly sorties, since they might attack him or his palace.

I would have thought any conflict among the Aegean Islands might be suited to a system like Seastrike particularly since neither side has anything bigger than 4K tons?

I'd also suggest that unless the Greeks are clearly the unprovoked belligerents they'd receive a lot of tacit support from NATO and EU countries even if the NATO treaty wasn't activated. Conversely I can see Turkey struggling to obtain parts and munitions for its 'western' systems. I could see some countries siding with Turkey, but that may more for the opportunity to throw geopolitical poo about than actually help Turkey… And a chunk of Turkey's air force may will be committed to other areas.

Greeks are and have been short of money for their toys. The navy lack modern electronics.
Very probable many older stuff are not serviceable. Theat's why they are actually quite calm.
USa has been quietly cutting off spare parts and modern bits to the mus brotherhood great leader, the new sultan. He is de facto an enemy. You vcan find on internet his and ministers speaches, with subtitles, worth Goebbels.

So far ypthe Greeks are supported by F , Israel, Egypt, who would effectively act in case. All the important gameplay idps done in the shadows so that no one loses face, esp important for the sultan.

Jcfrog,

I've not seen any info anywhere regarding Greek issues with operational levels except P-3 Orion MPA which were withdrawn but are now being refurbished and reintroduced to service.

Have you got any info on operational capabilities?

Older kits has been withdrawn without replacement – eg A-7 Corsair and unupgraded F-4 and RF-4.

They have been commissioning new ships and aircraft and are undertaking a massive F-16 upgrade to Block 70 configuration.

Note from a technological perspective Turkey and Greece are similar, except the Greek U214s which are more advanced than anything the Turks own (mainly based on U209s like most of the Greek fleets). There were teething issues with U214s but these seem to have been resolved.

I suspect in any Greco-Turkish war the 4 U214s would create a large advantage for the Greeks just like the cruiser Georgios Averof did in the Balkan Wars of 1912-13.