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"Conscript Grenadiers" Topic


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27 Jul 2020 5:39 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "Conscrit Grenadiers" to "Conscript Grenadiers"

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Comments or corrections?

Widowson26 Jul 2020 3:05 p.m. PST

I've seen variations on the lapels on these infantrymen, from white with pointed lapels, to what I always believed, blue square lapels.

Is there an authoritarian source on this?

And did they have the same scalloped cuff flaps as the OG?

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP26 Jul 2020 10:09 p.m. PST

Yes, what you believe. Kinski style habit.

Blue, piped white lapels and vertical pockets. White turnbacks, red eagle ornaments. White scalloped cuff flaps.
Conscript Chasseurs- Pointed lapels, pointed cuffs, red piped white. Green shoulder strap, piped white. Blie turnback with white eagle (side) AND horn (back) ornaments. All brass buttons.

Otherwise as above.
MG Head Almark 1972 states all other equipment same as Tirailleur-Grenadiers.
cheers davew

Widowson27 Jul 2020 10:27 a.m. PST

Kinski habit has no lapels. Conscrit Grenadiers have no piping on blue lapels, or so I was led to believe. I am not interested in the Conscrit Chasseurs. Only the Conscrit Grenadiers. But thanks. I hope for more info.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP27 Jul 2020 3:15 p.m. PST

>>style habit.

OK, short tailed habit then.
Source and other French correspond, so take at your leisure.

Chasseurs merely included for clarification (because somebody would anyway…)
d

Widowson30 Jul 2020 4:20 p.m. PST

I used to believe that the lapels were blue. One of the sources above shows them as white. Can anybody clarify?

Widowson18 Sep 2020 11:44 a.m. PST

Still hoping for clarification on this. Blue or white lapels?

Prince of Essling18 Sep 2020 12:55 p.m. PST

Michael G Head "Foot Regiments of the Imperial Guard" shows blue lapels, edged white.

Grenadiers with blue collar, blue pointed shoulder straps edged red, red square cuffs with a white three pointed cuff slash, white turnbacks edged red with red eagles. Vertical pockets piped red (in the text though the illustration shows white). However note some other illustrations show no white piping to the lapels….

Chasseurs with red collars edged blue, green shoulder straps edged white, red pointed cuffs edged white, blue turnbacks, edged red with white horns (though illustration shows both white eagle and white horn).Vertical pockets piped white. Note however some other sources suggest green horns on the turnbacks.

Elting's "Napoleoniv Uniforms Volume 2" shows:

Grenadier with red shoulder strap but no blue edging, just plain blue lapels, red edged vertical pockets.

Chasseur red collar edged white, green shoulder straps edged red, blue lapels edged white.

So all in all quite confusing….

Prince of Essling18 Sep 2020 1:02 p.m. PST

Will try and dig out my copy of "Encyclopedie des Uniformes Napoleoniens 1800-1815 Tome 1" by Vincent Bourgeot & Alain Pigeard over the weekend as I have a feeling it will clear up the confusion…

Widowson19 Sep 2020 5:57 p.m. PST

Many thanks, your grace.

My reason for wanting to create this unit is because I work in 1/72 plastic, and the Esci and Italeri French infantry sets, though nice all around, are actually accurate ONLY FOR THIS UNIT.

I'm afraid that this unit, as well as the Conscrit Chasseurs, were sent to Spain in 1809, never to return. I'm going to build the unit anyway, for the reason stated above.

Prince of Essling20 Sep 2020 5:31 a.m. PST

See article by Paul Dawson at link
and PDF link

Prince of Essling20 Sep 2020 1:32 p.m. PST

"Encyclopedie des Uniformes Napoleoniens 1800-1815 Tome 1" has:
Conscrit-Grenadier
Le 28 Janvier 1809, l'Empereur ecrivait aau ministre de la Guerre : "Mon intention est d'appeler dans la Garde 10,000 conscrits, pour les repartir ensuite sur differents points : trois quarts seront habilles avec l'uniforme de ligne ordinaire et un quart avec l'uniforme d'infanterie legere. On leur donnera les boutons des tirailleurs et des fusiliers, sauf, quand ils seront envoyes a des regiments, de remplacer leur boutons par ceux du regiment. Pour cela il faut que la Garde ait des boutons de tous les numeros."

L'uniforme des conscrits est indique dans l'ouvrage de Perrot et Amoudru sur l'Ex-Garde: "Habit bleu de roi, coupe a l'uniforme des grenadiers et fusiliers-grenadiers, mais court, et nomme habit-veste; collet bleu uni, revers carres en drap bleu uni avec sept boutons; paraments rouges, sans lisere, et petites pattes de manches blanches avec trois boutons. Doublure des basques blanche, avec lisere eclarte: passepoil des poches eclarte, garni de trois gros bouton; deux gros boutons aux plis de la taille. Retroussis garnis de quatre aigles en drap eclarte. Pattes d'oie pour epaulettes en drap bleu, lisere eclarte."

Dans sa clebre serie, Martinet represente un conscrit-grenadier avec revers blancs.

Dans ses Memoires, Florentin Guitard , qui sert aux conscrit-grenadiers parle de son uniforme "habit bleu, court, avec revers blanc, passepoils rouge". Le texte parle pourtant de revers carres en drapo bleuuni; mais nous voyons que Guitard, qui a porte l'uniforme cite des revers blancs, ce qui semble plus credible.

Si l'on se refere au texte officiel , on trouve une description laconique: " Art 6. Le regiment de conscrits-chasseurs portera l'uniforme de l'infanterie de ligne; hormis que l'habit sera court et l'aigle sur le bouton." Comme on le voit l'uniforme des conscrits-grenadiers est "oublie". En fait il semble bien que les les conscrits-grenadiers portaient les revers blancs, et les boutons a aigle, comme le confirme le conscrit Guitard. Le shako etait comme celui des fusiliers-grenadiers, avec plumet rouge, galon blanc en V, plaque avec aigle en ciuvre jaune. Guitard ajoute un cordon de shako blanc et cite des "demi-guetres noires a couer." La giberne avait un aigle couronne encuivre jauni agalement. Si le fusul etait celui de la ligne, il semble bien que les conscrits portaient le sabre-briquet avec dragonne blanche a gland et franges rouges. Les galons de grade etaient comme pour les tirailleurs, de couleur aurore chez les caporaux. Ils etaient or a lisere rouge pour les sergents, de meme pour epaulettes et le "V" du shako. Les aigles de retroussis etaient en or a partir du grade de sergent. Les officiers, jusqu'au grade de capitaine , portaient les uniformes a pans longs de leur ancien regiment. Le shako etait garni d'un velours noir avec des etoiles d'or brodees: un visiere a jonc dore, de meme que l'aigle et les juglaires; cocard; plumet rouge avec une tulipe; enfin cordon raquette dore.

I understand Tradition magazine no 178 has an article on the conscrits unfortunately I don't have a copy; there is also a planche in "Le Briquet 1996 no 3" again I don't have a copy.

Prince of Essling21 Sep 2020 11:45 a.m. PST

picture

Widowson21 Sep 2020 3:41 p.m. PST

I can't read French. The article is useless to me. I guess I'll try to copy it to Word and get it translated.

Widowson21 Sep 2020 3:42 p.m. PST

And here it is:

Conscript-Grenadier
On January 28, 1809, the Emperor wrote to the Minister of War: "My intention is to call in the Guard 10,000 conscripts, to then distribute them on different points: three quarters will be dressed in ordinary line uniforms and a quarter with the uniform of light infantry. They will be given the buttons of skirmishers and fusiliers, except, when they are sent to regiments, to replace their buttons by those of the regiment. For this it is necessary that the Guard have buttons of all numbers. "

The uniform of the conscripts is indicated in Perrot and Amoudru's work on the Ex-Guard: "King's blue coat, cut to the uniform of grenadiers and fusiliers-grenadiers, but short, and named coat-jacket; collar plain blue, square lapels in plain blue cloth with seven buttons; red parameters, without edging, and small white sleeve plackets with three buttons. White basques lining, with open edging: piping on the pockets, trimmed with three large buttons; two large buttons with pleats at the waist. Turnbacks trimmed with four open cloth eagles. Crow's feet for blue cloth epaulettes, open border. "

In his key series, Martinet represents a conscript-grenadier with white lapels.

In his Memoires, Florentin Guitard, who serves the conscript-grenadiers speaks of his uniform "blue coat, short, with white lapel, red piping". However, the text speaks of square lapels in blue cloth; but we see that Guitard, who wore the uniform, quotes white lapels, which seems more credible.

If we refer to the official text, we find a laconic description: "Art 6. – The regiment of conscripts-chasseurs will wear the uniform of the line infantry; except that the coat will be short and the eagle on the button." As we can see the uniform of the conscripts-grenadiers is "forgotten". In fact it seems that the conscripts-grenadiers wore the white lapels, and the eagle buttons, as confirmed by the conscript Guitard. The shako was like that of the fusiliers-grenadiers, with red plume, white V-shaped braid, plaque with eagle in yellow leather. Guitard adds a bead of white shako and quotes "black half-leggings to be cut." The pouch had a crowned eagle of copper which also turned yellow. If the rifle was that of the line, it seems that the conscripts wore the saber-lighter with a white strap with tassel and red fringes. The ranks were as for the skirmishers, dawn color for the corporals. They were gold with a red border for sergeants, the same for epaulets and the "V" of the shako. The upturned eagles were gold from the rank of sergeant. The officers, up to the rank of captain, wore the uniforms – with long sides – of their former regiment. The shako was trimmed with black velvet with embroidered gold stars: a visor with a golden rush, as were the eagle and the jewels; cockade; red plume with a tulip; finally golden racket cord.

Widowson21 Sep 2020 3:48 p.m. PST

Now that I've read it in English, the same confusion. The actual member of the unit first says white lapels, then blue. No answer.

Widowson21 Sep 2020 4:05 p.m. PST

Seems like the consensus is white lapels. And no plumes?

Prince of Essling23 Sep 2020 11:15 a.m. PST

@Widowson, The picture above is from Martinet & shows a red plume. So if you go with the description then you can have the red plume.

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