"Celts in the Ariovist army in 58 BC?" Topic

Hello everyone,

I lose my Latin there, for reasons that I imagine, certain peoples are called Germans by some or Celts by others …

Among these peoples who belonged to the Ariovist confederation the Triboci and Nemetes were Celts and maybe the Vangiones…
 
No?

1) The names of these peoples.

The name Tribocchi, variant Treboci is built on the Celtic treb- "village" and means "those of the villages".

Nemetes is derived from nemos, "forest".

For the Vangions this would be more biased …

So there may be a doubt for the name of the Vangions.

See Xavier Delamarre, Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise.

2) Ancient sources classify these three peoples among the Germani, but we do not really know what this term meant at the time of Caesar, who did not tire of doing ethnology.

He simply called the people living across the Rhine Germani.

However, even to the east of the river, there were still Celts in his time.

The first Germans to the north were the Suevi Nicretes,the Ariovist tribe.

The Romans also created a military district west of the Rhine which they called Germania, while there is no doubt that its inhabitants were culturally Celts.(think of Lingons).

3) Aelius Tubero, author of the time of Caesar, and very anti-Caesarean, explains the victory of the proconsul by the superiority of the gladius Hispaniensis sword (aka 'Hispanicus') over the Gallic sword (galatikos xiphos).

What would a Gallic sword do in an army made up entirely of Germans?

4) When we study the names of inscriptions from the Roman period and the traces left by the native religion, we do not find any Germanic name.

No Wotan, Arminius, Thusnelda.

It was not until the 4th century that we had Deutschtum west of the Rhine.

5) Be careful, contrary to what is said, Arioviste was not a Celt.

The name that was transmitted in the sources was known by the Romans through the Celts, who served as intermediaries between Germans and Romans.

The Ariovistos form results from a celtization of a perfectly Suevian name built on Hario, "the army".

Again: Xavier Delamarre.

A Gallic sword would be in a German army the same way a Spanish Sword would be in a Roman army. The Romans called it a gallic sword no matter who used it.

La Tene swords were not used exclusively by Gauls. Germans, Dacians, Illyrians etc all used them.
Nemetes is likely from nemeton which means sacred grove so would be an ancient equivalent of calling yourself Templars. Triboci could have a meaning of three [boci] as tribal names beginning with tri- are well known. I just don't see a tribe calling itself The Village People.

The Romans called it a gallic sword no matter who used it.

Yes but it is normal to find Celtic weapons in the Ariovist army since the Celts were numerous there and they were because Ariovistus had many Celtic subjects established in the East of the Rhine andas for his German subjects they used their own Germanic weaponry …

LOL Xavier Delamarre is a recognized linguist, specialist in old continental Gaulish.

The Roman provinces of Lower and Upper Germany are better thought of as "German Marches," not that Germans were living there.

The Roman provinces of Lower and Upper Germany ???

We are in 58 BC !

At this time germania is east of the rhine and among the seven peoples who form the Suéve confederation of Arioviste, two are Celts (The Celts known as of the Main river), because at that time there were also Celts in germania.

I know who Xavier Delamarre is, and he'd admit that many etymologies are guesses. It's one of the problems with decyphering poorly attested languages. A large part of the process tries to find cognates in early Irish or Welsh and the base word is often a latinised form rather than the native form making identification more difficult.

Just because something sounds like it fits, doesn't mean it fits. It's like the word Gaul, most people think it comes from the Latin name for Gaul which was Gallia. It doesn't, isn't remotely related and comes from a Germanic word for foreigner. Gaul is a cognate of Wales.

Brittany is a cognate of current Cornwall, Devon and South Wales, ok but Gaul is a cognate of Wales, LOL.

It's like I said on Jul 26, 2020, "For reasons that I imagine, certain peoples are called Germans by some or Celts by others…"

Wales, Cornwall, Walloon and Walnut are all based on a Germanic word meaning foreign.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Gaul comes from Old Frankish *Walholant meaning land of Gauls (foreigners). Walho (foreigner) lant (land). The German w often becomes a gu/g sound in French such as war – guerre.

The Old Norse word for the Roman Empire or at least the lands that used to be part of it was Valland with the people being Valir.

Similar words were used to describe ex-Roman regions and people in eastern Europe such as Wallachia and the Vlachs.

LOL-I don't know and no one else either …

So like everyone else, you have your opinion and you think that the Tribocchi and the Nemetes are not Celts, but I have it for you already say, for reasons that I imagine, certain peoples are called Germans by some or Celts by others…

For the Tribocchi and the Nemetes, I don't know and no one else either and I think we will ever know.