"I'm done here" Topic

rjones69, I would note that Pew has been caught several times cooking the books when it comes to public opinion polls. However, the poor reporting on what has been going on lately explains at least some of the polling.

"Because the statistics he interprets to mean what he thinks, tell me something about the inadequacy and brutality of American policing?"

As a side note:
Number of interactions between police and civilians every yea: roughly 60 million

Number of people killed by police last year: roughly 1000

Number of unarmed black people killed by police in 2019: 10

Number of black people killed criminally by other black people: roughly 6,300

Number of people killed by medical malpractice in 2019: Roughly 250,000

I'm not white, so I can't be a racist…

Well how is that statement not racist in of its self, its one of those weird beliefs that has crept into the culture that racism is somehow tied to 'white' people.

I'm not white, so I can't be a racist…

Well how is that statement not racist in of its self, its one of those weird beliefs that has crept into the culture that racism is somehow tied to 'white' people.

Its one of those weird ideas that a certain group has esposed, that only white people can be racist, while they do and say similar things. In other words, only whites are racist because I say so, even though I may do the exact same thing. Being as it has become basically ingrained in the "mainstream" culture as a political dogma, its actually funny in a pitiful hypocritical way.

I use that statement to poke fun at said certain group, since they insist that only whites can be racist, even though that objectively isn't true. I use their dogma against them. It frequently causes them to "vapor lock" and not know how to respond other than a sputtering tantrum. :)

Personally, I don't care what someone's skin color is, I care what culture you bring with you, what you say, and how you act. I dislike people of my own skin color who act "trashy" and "low class" as well. Culture matters much more than skin color. There are superior cultures, and inferior cultures. Discrimination based on skin color is a relatively recent phenomenon, historically speaking. People used to be discrimated against because they were of a particular culture or country of origin, not skin color.

Yeah, its a weird way of allowing your side to be racist, bigoted or whatever while seeking to punish others for their transgressions. I was brought up to be as colour blind as possible and judge people on their actions, while making jokes about the French, Germans etc.

Earl, can't say I can disagree with that. :)

There's only two things I hate in the world. People who are intolerant of other's people's cultures… and

Dn Jackson +1 … My only question with BLM is if you really care about BLs then why don't they get more involved with stopping Black Americans killing Black Americans ? Which far out numbers LEOs killings of Black Americans, yes ? I don't have any agenda but the numbers speak for themselves, yes ?

that only white people can be racist

Yes, as we all know that is not at all true. But it plays into some peoples' narratives, agenda, etc.

Culture matters much more than skin color.

So very true … As some comedian said, IIRC, "Don't hate someone for their color when there are so many other things to choose from !" …

To quote (IIRC) Hugh Bicheno: 'Men say they fight for freedom. They don't; they fight for the freedom to oppress others.'

Earl +1

I'm really concerned that saying topics like BLM can be discussed freely here because/provided it doesn't reference particular political parties or leaders is really going to cause problems and divisions that this forum really doesn't need right now.

Hopefully I've misunderstood the editorial stance on this but reading some subsequent posts, I fear not.

Billclo,

Really? Could you give us examples of what you consider to be a superior or inferior culture?

And I think, with a bit of digging, I can find examples of Nazis who married Jews.

And I'm still unsure whether you believe non-whites can be racist or not.

I am here for historical miniature wargaming. Now if you wish to dicuss board games or RPGs I am down with that. BLM etc is not part of that. BLM is a political party , as chairman Mao says all politics start at the barrel of a gun.

Basha, I am not interested in trying to change your mind on anything, as I believe it would be a waste of my time and energy. I see a trap here, and I'm not falling for it.

86% of Black Americans support Black Lives Matter (no surprise there)

Why only 86% and not 100%? What do the other 14% have against BLM? Could it be that BLM is a political organization that has very little to do with stopping racism? Everyone who I know supports black lives just as much as much as all lives. We just don't support BLM which has a self admitted Marxist agenda.

I'm not white, so I can't be a racist…

This is just a -- I hope -- amusing side note to this discussion. Many years ago, my then-girlfriend and I entered a sushi restaurant. She's American-born Chinese (like 4th generation -- she has ancestors who built the railroads) and I'm white. The restaurant staff just ignored us while we stood by the "please wait to be seated" sign. The place was not busy. They just refused to look at us. We left.

My girlfriend's comment was, "Some Japanese just hate Chinese. It's happened to me before."

It was also possible that they hated interracial couples. I had eaten at that same restaurant a few years before with my first wife, who was white, with no issues.

So, yeah. You don't even have to leave the USA to see that people all over the world can be just the same.

Ah, so many targets, so little time. Why don't I start by addressing "billcio".
Regarding the issue of your anti-black racism, or lack thereof:

And to those who might call me a racist, a)I'm not white, so I can't be a racist (though I consider myself a culturist)

William, were you in one of the Harry Potter films? Were you the one waving a magic "I'm not white, therefore I can't be racist " wand? No? That wasn't you? I guess I was mistaken.

Anyway, while that magic wand might work at Hogwarts, amongst us Muggles that wand has no effect.

I'm not going to address the question of whether or not you're a racist. I will, however, address the irrelevance of whether or not you're white.

Just because you're not white, doesn't mean you can't be racist or bigoted.
Asian-Americans can be racist against black people, against Hispanic people, against white people. Black people can be racist against white people, against Hispanic people, against Asian people. People of racially mixed heritage can be racist against various groups. People of color who are not Jewish can be anti-Semitic.

For example, the rapper Ice Cube is not white, in fact he's black. But that doesn't prevent him from being anti-Semitic or being racist towards Asian people:

link

And what about Louis Farrakhan. Farrakhan is not white, in fact he's black. But Farrakhan is racist towards white people, anti-Semitic, sexist, and homophobic. I think he's an overachiever, and is trying to win the Quadruple Crown of Bigotry.

So you see, William, just because you're not white, doesn't mean you can't be racist against, for example, black people, or white people, or anti-Semitic.

Although to be fair, I don't think there's any evidence that you're racist against white people or anti-Semitic.

Once again, responding to "billcio".

William:
Your claim that African-Americans don't do anything about crime in their communities, and don't really care about black lives, is an unmitigated lie.

Let me present your statements below:

I note with interest that blacks claim that "Black Lives Matter", while they don't do anything about black on black crime in their communities (not to mention blacks killing thousands of their fellow blacks every year), and they refuse to critically examine their broken culture tells me all I need to know.

Bill, no I'm not planning on getting much closer to politics than I already said. I just find the whole BLM thing kind of hypocritical, when the actions of the black community say that they don't really care about black lives that much. Note their actions, not their words.

Let me first discuss some words, because words are important, but then I will discuss some actions – because actions do speak louder than words.

Words regarding BLM:
"The idea that black-on-black crime is not a significant political conversation among black people is patently false. In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial murder, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt violent altercations before they escalate. However, those who insist on talking about black-on-black crime frequently fail to acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. Ninety-three percent of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Eighty-four percent of white murder victims are killed by other white people. The continued focus on black-on-black crime is a diversionary tactic, whose goal is to suggest that black people don't have the right to be outraged about police violence in vulnerable black communities, because those communities have a crime problem. The Black Lives Matter movement acknowledges the crime problem, but it refuses to locate that crime problem as a problem of black pathology. Black people are not inherently more violent or more prone to crime than other groups. But black people are disproportionately poorer, more likely to be targeted by police and arrested, and more likely to attend poor or failing schools. All of these social indicators place one at greater risk for being either a victim or a perpetrator of violent crime. To reduce violent crime, we must fight to change systems, rather than demonizing people."

( from "11 Major Misconceptions About the Black Lives Matter Movement", PDF link )

And from the NAACP:
"Especially devastating to our communities and to our youth is gang violence: many of the crimes committed by gangs and gang members are reprehensible and cause irreparable harm not only to individual victims but to families and whole neighborhoods as well. While the perpetrators of these crimes must be punished, it is becoming clear that we must take a proactive approach and try to steer at-risk youth away from gangs and towards being successful, productive members of our communities before a crime is committed."
link

As these quotes from BLM and the NAACP indicate, that violent crime is a serious problem in the African-American community is explicitly acknowledged. It's been part of the social and political conversation in the African-American community for decades. BLM explicitly acknowledges the crime problem.

But it's possible to work against violence due to police misconduct and also to work against violence due to crime committed by members of the community. It's not an "either-or" situation. While apparently it may be hard for you, William, most people are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Now in terms of actions. Violent crime is not a result of a "broken" African-American culture or "black pathology". It is a symptom of larger social inequalities. So one must take actions to eliminate those inequalities. And not principally to reduce violent crime, although that it is a major benefit that saves lives, but more importantly because of simple justice – because it is fair and saves lives, minds, and souls.

One of those key inequalities is educational inequality. The focus of African-Americans in hundreds of communities across the nation, and my own personal focus, has been on being "proactive" (from the NAACP) by addressing the issue of children "attend[ing] poor or failing schools" (from BLM).

For the last 19 years I've been volunteering with a tutoring and mentoring nonprofit that works with children in a predominantly African-American HUD Section 8 housing complex in Washington, DC. The average family income is less than $10,000 USD, local public schools are underperforming, and crime rates are among the highest in the city.

I initially worked with pre-K and kindergartners, because of the need to be proactive, and followed them each year as they advanced. The last 16 of those years I've been working with one particular young lady, Jena. Jena was a 5-year-old kindergartener when she and I started working together in 2004, and we've stayed working together continuously since then. She is now a 21-year-old college senior attending the University of Rochester on a four-year full-tuition scholarship, and with a 3.85 GPA.

And Jena is not alone. Other students from our program, many of whom I tutored and mentored, are now in graduate school, or have become teachers in the very communities where they once attended school. And those students who didn't attend college still graduate high school and are working, supporting their communities.

This program provides academic tutoring, mentoring, field trips, character building and life skills discussion groups for our older youth, health support, and help with job and college applications.

And because local public schools have not provided our kids with the strongest tools for success, we advocate for our kids to get them enrolled in the best schools possible. 80% of our kids are enrolled in high-performing charter schools.

In addition to my tutoring and mentoring, for the last 14 years I've also volunteered for a local charter school, to address the effects of underperforming schools not just on African-American children, but also on Hispanic, Asian-American, and white children. I served on the school's Board of Trustees for four terms (from 2006 to 2017) until term limits required that I transition off the Board, but I still remain active with the school. In addition to my governance duties on the Board I helped with the development of the school's STEM curriculum and mentored their robotics team (which is predominantly students of color), including securing funding for the team from my company.

Since 2018 I've also begun volunteering with a second charter school, part of the charter school network from which Jena graduated in 2017. And since 2018 I've also tutored an African-American community college student 2-3 times a week in physics and calculus.

Until the COVID-19 pandemic shut things down, I'd be at a tutoring, mentoring, or charter school event several times a week after work, often taking an entire day off from work. And I'd be at an event on a weekend once to twice a month.

By the way, if you're wondering what are the four keys to maintaining this level of volunteering commitment over nearly 20 years, while also maintaining a successful career as a scientist, they are: (a) who says you need to sleep EVERY night?; (b) 2 hours of sleep officially counts as getting "one night's sleep", unless you're asked while under oath in a court room; (c) go to three miniatures conventions a year, every year, because you'll need it; (d) other than miniatures conventions, a vacation is something you take every 2 to 3 years.

In addition to volunteering my time, and my love, because I love these kids, I'm also a financial donor to my tutoring/mentoring program and charter schools. This year I'm donating more than $10,000. USD. And I do not have an income in the high six figures, and I do not take the tax deductions, so this is money straight out of my pocket. But this is money well spent that makes a difference in children's futures. And not just in the futures of African-American children: the elementary school of one of the charter schools is 39% black, 37% Hispanic, and 17% white.

And while I acknowledge my commitment may be above the norm, I work with hundreds of volunteers in the tutoring and charter school community who volunteer many hours a week and donate hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars a year (based on what they can afford). And then there are the students and the parents: students who show up for tutoring several hours after school, from 4-8 PM, 2-3 times a week, to do not just their homework but also additional work so that they can succeed. And the parents who support them, and make sure they're doing their work.

Before the COVID-19 pandemic, I would meet on a regular basis with other African-Americans involved in tutoring, mentoring, and charter schools in the DC community. And also became aware of those working in other cities. This work – in tutoring programs, mentoring programs, charter schools – is taking place in African-American communities throughout the United States.

So I can tell you from direct personal experience that black lives do matter to black people, and black people are doing things to address the problems confronting their communities.

Rjones, billco doesn't want to be trapped into standing up for his opinions, explain or justify them, he just wanted to put them out there.

No one should have to worry about being trapped.

Free and open discussion needs to be just that.

It's through free and open discussion people can communicate.

TFLs campaign is looking a lot less like them being against unproven allegations as opposed to opposing communication.

There is also a difference between the statement of Black lives matter and the organization that uses that as its name.

Wmyers, we may not agree on everything, but we agree that free and open discussion needs to be just that.

So when someone says something you disagree with, or you think is just daft, I have no problem with a spirited but polite debate, from which all can learn, but it's annoying when the OP says something (deliberately?) provocative and then won't engage when challenged.

we may not agree on everything, but we agree that free and open discussion needs to be just that.

Amen !

@ rjones69 – I think part of the problem is the good things like that you listed does not often get picked up by the media, etc.

The vocal minority no matter what the situation gets the headlines.

Wish it was not so but it is generally.

Legion 4, I agree. Sometimes the silent majority need to stand up and be counted.

Several much-used quotes on that subject, and sadly social media amplifies the babble of the vocal minority and opinion-formers and politicians jumping on the bandwagon.

That latest post by rjones69 is one of the most through provoking I've read here recently, thank you. It's a pity that more of the silent majority here aren't prepared to call out the divine nonsense posted by some other members – I don't complain about such posts because I do believe in free speech, but when such comments go unchallenged, it gives ammunition to those who seek to criticise the forum and its membership as racist RWNJ's (or whatever the latest acronym is).

Roy,

I often read "thank you for your service" on these pages. It's something that is sadly not so often heard here in the UK, but I'm biased, having two sons in the services right now.

But I just wanted to say ‘thank you for YOUR service', because what you are doing is an equally, if not more, important contribution towards making your society a more equal, integrated and, above all, safer one for ALL its members.

While there are citizens like you out there, doing good stuff without any expectation of recognition or reward, there is still hope for all of us.

So, thank you.

Charlie

Thank you Charlie. I really appreciate that.

Roy

Some very good points brought to light here.

A post which broke forum rules has been removed, and those which responded to that post.

Legion 4: but we'll never know what they were 😀

What the heck does any of this have to do with war gaming? Leave politics out of our TMP site.

Legion 4: but we'll never know what they were

Too many to choose from !

A post which broke forum rules has been removed, and those which responded to that post.

I have to state I'm somewhat confused as to where the line is.

We can discuss political issues but not mention political parties or politicians?

We can mention political organizations but not official on the ballot parties?

We can discuss political issues but not mention political parties or politicians?

Race relations is not a political issue. However, if you are mentioning current politicians and parties, you've crossed the line into politics.

We can mention political organizations but not official on the ballot parties?

If you are mentioning Republicans or Democrats, you've probably crossed the line into current politics.

If you are discussing race relations on TMP, you should be talking about diversity in the hobby, or the history of race relations. Anything else would be off topic, wouldn't it?

Thank you for the clarification.

It helps, but it's a pretty fine line and I can see it being crossed a lot.

I know there's supposed to be no personal attacks but being able to discuss around issues does seem to often escalate into them if not even promote them.

Hence then accusations of "toxicity", "attacks", etc.

My suggestion would be to have all discussions on the topic of miniatures, games, hobby, etc.

I know, you're trying to invite maximum participation for maximum traffic. Adults are supposed to be adults.

Yet, as recent events have shown, the off-topic allowance has caused/allowed these accusations.

I know there's a complaint button but it feels like tattling/ratting someone out.

Just my 2 pence. I like TMP and wouldn't like to see it go but I have seen some slight validity in the complaints.

If someone doesn't like something it's commonly stated they will tell 10 of their experience but those who have a good experience may tell 1.

Take away that which can be complained about, without compromising the objective and without giving in to outrageous SJW complaining, it may help head off any attacks in the future.

(I don't think TFL has given up, they still have headline subject posts about writing to advertisers of TMP and none of them state not to.)

My suggestion would be to have all discussions on the topic of miniatures, games, hobby, etc.

You can make a proposal on the TMP Poll Suggestions board, but the readership has rejected this in the past.

For what it's worth, I find that in many of these discussions you can easily remove one group name and replace it with another group name, and carry on the conversation without skipping a beat.

I think the piece many miss is that really we are trying to have a discussion of economics, and trying to justify why some get more and some get less based not on ability, but rather some other more arbitrary reason. Many people then feel obligated to backfill an explanation as to why that reason makes sense, and actually is based on ability.

Until a person is ready and able to learn empathy, and not simply how to mimic it, I don't know how you can convince someone of something that they are not able to understand. When you look at something like the Christmas Truce of World War One, I don't think that the truce was as much about being part of the same religion as being able to empathize with 'the enemy' as other human beings. They were all in a terrible situation, and there were a number of times where they would converse and trade goods between battles other than just the Christmas event. It took severe punishment from above to limit that empathy, and I think it is worth noting that many groups work very hard to dehumanize other groups in a way that strikes me as very similar. I wonder how much we have really learned since that time.

Good insight Captain.

Going on the back of another poster, the other issue with these kids today are they do not know how to communicate face to face. They can hide behind a keyboard and smart off ( such as OK, Boomer) when they would not do that in a normal conversation.
I see that this modern batch of youngsters are know it all idiots that do not use logic or reason, or want to understand history. So, yes you have .

Sorry Bill if that touches the No politics rule.

I'm not sure if people today are really any different than they were 30, 60, or 500 years ago other than in adapting to changes in technology. I remember the counterculture movements 80's and 90's, and the Punk and Grunge groups were pretty hard to communicate with if you weren't part of the scene as I recall.

And as a father of a 20 year old, I was a bit shocked at the depth of her feelings in regard to current events, but upon reflection I think I was the same way before I lost my edge to cynicism and a belief I can't make a difference. Which is exactly how you stop making changes when things are broken.

I'm not sure if people today are really any different than they were 30, 60, or 500 years ago

I think the standards, morals, etc., etc., 30, 60, 500, etc., years ago may not be the same currently.

You can't always put today's standards, etc., on many things, institutions, etc., etc., that happened in the past. E.g. slavery, gender equality, etc., etc. Even go back 100 years. I.e. Women got to Vote in the US about that long ago. Today that seems incredible it was otherwise.

+1 WMyers (except the whole SJW thing)

+1 Captain obvious

I am one of the few older White protestant straight males here who happens to be a liberal I would enjoy talking about this (not debating) but the simple truth TMP is not the place for it. I have tried many times over the years to suggest to Bill that all politics need to go. I don't think that he understands that this is his business and not his living room,

dapeters, I think if all the politics were to go, this forum would have more members. Then more of an audience for advertisers. Less inflammatory comments. Less disgruntled people. Leading to more members and more posts and hence more advertising.

I think it's a win-win situation.

(that would mean on the "plus" boards as well)

+10 wmyers! More supporting membership as well.

WOW…such great spokespersons for our country, most of whom are now resting in The Big House!

Wamyers and dapeters…AGREED, I thought this was Blue Fez material…

Ah well, I had a few verbal run ins with the gentleman. I was simply amused by his…strong opinions…my amusement seemed to annoy him even more. He promised he was going to stifle me, I don't think he ever did it though.

@mildbill
BLM is a political party

He shoots, and HE SCORES!!!!!!

"Black Lives Matter is an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality against African-American people."

blacklivesmatter.com

I agree with wmyers that a renewed focus on gaming-related subjects, to the exclusion of all the more divisive subjects would be beneficial, attract more members and greater forum participation.

Bill points out that the membership have voted against such a change in the past but that's forgetting that this is a business not a private members' club. So even those that pay nothing into the club can vote for the status quo, that suits them, even though it's not good for the long-term survival of the business.

It's like a golf club with declining membership and revenues, whose existing members consistently vote against rule changes to allow women or junior members to join, because they don't want to see things change and are too short-sighted to realise it'll end with the closure of their beloved club house.

E.g. Caddy Shack, the seminal work on the subject !

+1 Basha Felika

By Jove, we're not going to be allowing them in here, too, are we!

Wmyers, old chap, I know, I know, we come here to escape ‘she who must be obeyed', but times are changing – they're even allowed to vote, don't cha know?

Just keep that upper lip stiff…