"Will WWII & Colonials Be Targeted Next?" Topic

I'd actually welcome the debate. There are some who fetishise Nazism within the hobby. The American Civil War gaming and reenacting community also harbours some who have questionable opinions about why the south rebelled.

I've never had any interest in Colonial Wargaming. Kind of a blind spot for me as in the UK we prefer to pretend it didn't happen or was much nicer than the reality.

Alas, standards of public discourse have sunk so low [were they ever very high?] that we have lost the ability to discuss anything.

There's no debate when these kind of campaigns happen. Well, I guess *we* get to debate while someone else is taken down or cancelled.

But for the target, there's no debate, just phone calls to their boss about why their company continues to have an employee who is a racist. If it's a larger company then it's about contacting as many people as possible, all the way up to the top (investor relations, HR teams, board members if possible) about how their company continues to employ a "known white supremacist."

And now the new tactic is to do the same to the family members of the target. Now the husbands and wives of targets are finding their livelihoods in jeopardy.

Kind of a reverse McCarthy witch hunt I suppose.

Due process and employment protection, solidarity organisations [Unions and professional associations could help but have been under attack for decades] are the best defence.

I contend this occurs on all sides of the divides. Right wingers are as guilty as left wingers, if not more so historically when they had the power.

If somebody were a White Supremecist Racist, they should be removed from office if and when they are found by a competent authority to abuse their power. Mere thought should not be a crime. And freedom of speech cuts all ways or is not freedom of speech at all.

But it would all end if/when someone grew a backbone and refused to play along and buckle and submit to their pressure tactics. Like S.I. Hayakawa.

I don't think it's ever as easy as 'growing a backbone' ….

We need to stand together on principles that are worthy of the name.

Did not know about S.I. Hayakawa. I would not have agreed with much of what he stood for – but he had every right to take the stand he did.

I've personally experienced an attempt to cancel my business from the local religious right, so I agree it's both sides. Some people found out I was interested in dungeons and dragons and spent hours on the phone calling any business they thought might be my customer and warning them I was satanic.

I find it so ironic that the current left wing crusaders don't see that they have become the new religious right.

It is the same narrow minded mentality at work. In my opinion, the US needs an amendment to the constitution to protect against this. Or a law to make it illegal to run these kind of campaigns as harassment.

It would have to protect everyone – however cracked their opinion may be.

Same in the UK too. Everywhere really.

A bit OT, but just an observation. It always amazes me sometimes the people that get voted into political positions. Obviously he or she is voted in by people that think like they do, etc. Or vote for them because they dislike the other candidate. Voting against someone by voting for lesser of two evils, etc.

I see some people get voted in year after year and IMO they are not worthy of that responsibility, etc. Good reason to have term limits.

And no matter what, like the hobby of wargaming with historical minis, etc. or even fantasy. Someone will probably be offended by something. E.g. like demons in fantasy some that are very religious may see that as Satanic, etc. I have heard about this before … As amazing as it may seem … At least to me …

I have seen some complaints on FB. Someone was complaining about Oniria Miniatures when they announced the release of some indians so they are like a virus infiltrating everything.They need to cancel the cancel culture.They are a very small group of loudmouths that hardly know anything about history.
Mark

That's FB, my wife's subscribed to a couple of cake baking feeds, and reading them over the her shoulder the speed at which discussions devolve makes a discussion of Sherman tank performance on this board look like polite small talk at a vicarage tea party!

X2 for Lee494. ROU makes an excellent point about wargamers in Europe being generally liberal/centre left. Although many of them would think of themselves as moderate 'small c' conservatives, by contemporary US standards they would be 'leftists with a capital L'. In the UK Joe Biden would be considered a traditional Conservative.

Well, ROU may make an excellent point about wargamers in 'Europe' but in my experience almost the opposite is true. Obviously I can't speak for all 'European' or even Belgian wargamers, but I yet have to find a single one who doesn't condemn this wanton vandalism by a very vociferous self confessed Marxist/ anarchist group masquerading as something else.
We like our history which might now always have been a shining example, but no one has the right to try to erase it or re- write it for political purposes.

This has long ceased to have anything to do with racism. Looting stores and tearing down ' colonial' WWI and WWII memorials, desecrating grave-sites is abhorred by all, or nearly all, of the wargamers I know. Or at least WANT to know.

Belgium and especially our King Leopold II is an 'easy 'target because of his connection with 'Belgian' Congo, but dig a little bit deeper to find out who were the real culprits in this admittedly atrocious affair. Obviously I won't be expecting this from the mostly clueless mass that is responsible for these acts of vandalism.

Again, as a foreigner I'm possible not exactly well placed to voice an opinion on a US presidential candidate, and I haven't got a clue how Mr. Biden would be politically 'classified' in the UK.
I won't give my personal opinion on him, but traditional and conservative are definitely not the first thoughts that come to my mind.

If anyone wants to know what a politician from one country would count as in another, look at policy positions and compare. For example, if a person said they would veto any legislation towards a national health service where would that place them in your country's spectrum? For Canada, that would be a far right position. But let's not get too far into US electoral politics.

I do want to add that even though I brought up an experience I had with attempt to damage my business by the religious right (almost 20 years ago), the current batch of people who are trying to cleanse the impure from society are the crusader cultural leftists. I call them cultural leftists because the ability of massive corporations to espouse the same positions shows that it's not a traditional left position. It is no threat to the actual rich and powerful.

I'm sure some of these moral busybodies are also socialists and even communists but the actual cancel campaigns are of no real consequence to capitalists or concentrations of wealth. Corporations happily add a diversity officer to their HR departments and love the opportunity to pander and make public relations statements about these issues.

Politically left of centre =/= approval of criminality.

And the small 'c' conservative observation is almost certainly true as well.

At least in the UK there is a clear disconnect between between what might call the modern progressive left and the old small 'c' working class left.

Much as the current generation of politicians are followed around around by their youthful activism, I'm fairly certain in coming years some future politician will be attempting to downplay their appearance in photos of public disorder while simultaneously condemning public disorder over the hot button issue de jour….

Don't underestimate the passion of stupid people. In 1996 I brought a small ACW diorama I had made to my workplace here in Florida to put on my desk. I had painted the piece and wanted to show my colleagues my hobby. There was a Union flag and a Confederate battle flag on the diorama. A colleague of mine questioned my use of the battle flag. He was mildly upset with it. I explained the context and he backed off. I never thought anything more about it. But in this climate it is possible that a person may come to a convention, see an ACW game with all those battle flags flying and have a problem with it. That's all it takes. When I was still living in New York someone whipped up a holy war about lead miniatures poisoning children. Tests were made about saliva and lead poisoning. The legislature proposed a law that would ban lead figures. I wrote my Assemblyman complaining that this was prejudice since no one was complaining about lead fishing sinkers and bullets. They attacked a small group of people to get noticed and look like they were handling a problem. Many companies switched to other metals in fear and prices increased. I don't remember what happened to the legislation but it was a scary year. And that's all it takes.

Don't underestimate the passion of stupid people.

So very true ! E.g. SJWs, intellectual academics, KKK, White Supremacists, Religious fanatics/Jihadis/Terrorists, etc., etc.

And sadly many marching in the streets who go beyond peaceful protesting but destroying and/or defacing property, etc. etc.

Useful dupes I think Lenin called them …

I have commonly seen Lenin's appellation translated as "useful idiots".

B

Don't underestimate the passion of stupid people.

Hitched to the cult of the individual and the idea that my uninformed, and often ill informed, opinion has as much value as empirical evidence is probably what will kill 'western civilisation'.

B – I've heard both, I don't speak Russian … so. But yes either term is appropriate, I think.

ROU – certainly looks like that may happen !

Don't underestimate the passion of stupid people.

They let emotions rule them (it's not uncommon, think of any child having a tantrum, couple arguing, many bar fights, most criminal acts (that are caught), etc.

Then tie in the Dictatorship of Relativism and they feel justified in their behaviour.

Fortunately many of these types are too busy destroying property, burning buildings, tearing down statues, etc., to get around to our toy soldiers. So far at least …

certainly looks like that may happen !

Just prove no one particular country has a monopoly on stupid…
link

link

Maybe stupid is contagious worldwide ? Like COVID!

Anyone try to stop you from playing ant era that you want, use a ball bat on them. That is all the attention they deserve.

But in this climate it is possible that a person may come to a convention, see an ACW game with all those battle flags flying and have a problem with it.

WWII games are less likely to be affected by this issue, since historically it was not exactly common to see national flags being flown anywhere close to the battlefield for obvious reasons.

So there shouldn't be a forest of Nazi German flags flying around a table. The only historical case for ground forces that I could think are air identification panels resembling the flag that were sometimes placed on the rear deck of vehicles, to notify friendly aircraft. However, they worked both ways so were only useful if the Germans had air superiority, which became less and less common as the war progressed. I don't think adding these to vehicles is popular amongst gamers (and I would be a bit vary of gamers with unhealthy interest in them).

Soviet propaganda posters may sometimes display red flags being taken forward, but this should probably be seen as symbolic rather than an example of what happened on real battlefields. That said, I have read one example at the very end of battle for Stalingrad, where Red Army soldiers spotting friendly tanks approaching to link up with them went to meet them with a red flag.

Japanese may apparently sometimes have flown their battle flags when entering battle. Whether your average by-passer will be able to recognise the flag and associate it with the Japanese atrocities before and during WWII might be another issue.

In case of WWII air combat games, the German planes of course have the swastikas painted in their tails, though these do not stand out particularly easily, especially with planes in smaller scales.

But for a casual bypasser, with no familiarity in period equipment and uniforms, witnessing a WWII game it would be likely difficult to tell what nationality those folks in khaki, green or greyish clothing represent.