"Please stop please" Topic

In addition , if I do advertise on TMP I am a racist, bigot and bully by association.

There were many here that Bill had to lock out because if you didn't agree with their POV, beliefs, etc. you were those and more.

Those that use those "techniques", etc. know they can get away with it because they can use the net as cover. Like making a phone call. Or hiding behind their mommy's skirt.

However, I'm a firm believer that those type would probably never say those things to your face on the street, in a bar, etc. As I know in my case I may "get angry".

As if you can't have an adult conversion on any topic, act like a grown up, etc. Sometimes it may not be worth any contact. As Bruce Banner says, "You won't like me if I get angry !

People have way too much time on their hands.
L

+1 L !!!!

etiohippi – Bill can delete entire threads and they then completely disappear !!

I suspect that TFL have unleashed a whirlwind that they cannot control. They are trying to beat what they describe as bullying behavior by turning up with a bigger gang and being bigger bullies …

Does the UK not have Hate Speech laws to prevent these sorts of online atacks?

Etiohippi, thanks for the explanation – when I've duplicated or just changed my mind about a post in the past, I know I see a ‘deleted' marker for a short period, or have an option to edit my post but I can't see any ‘makers' when someone else has either edited or completely removed a thread – for example, the 3 (?) original posts about ‘those rules' that sparked this unfortunate spat.

Those three or four emails to Peter Pig must have been pretty bad for Martin to be so upset by them – if they're so bad (threats of violence etc) then he should immediately report them to the police, because that's a criminal, not civil, offence. Otherwise, with badly written, intemperate emails becoming the norm these days, he should just reply (once) in equally robust terms and then get on with enjoying his weekend.

Does the UK not have Hate Speech laws to prevent these sorts of online atacks?

We were able to get Facebook to recognize one of the posts as Hate Speech and have it removed.

The problem with Facebook's system is that you can only report an offensive post, but you cannot advise FB of why it is offensive or explain the context.

So, for example, my complaints about an anti-Mormon post on the Too Fat Lardies Facebook feed was allowed by Facebook – because I think Facebook did not recognize it as an anti-Mormon slur.

It is abhorrent that some of these TFL fans would bring up someone's religion as part of their attacks.

etiohippi – Bill can delete entire threads and they then completely disappear !!

He absolutely can. But he doesn't have to. And by and large he doesn't. Basha Felika was pointing out that there tons of edit indications in certain threads.

This indicates that while editing, TMP is selective and leaves things that do not violate policy and transparently tells people when they do edit.

when I've duplicated or just changed my mind about a post in the past, I know I see a ‘deleted' marker for a short period, or have an option to edit my post but I can't see any ‘makers' when someone else has either edited or completely removed a thread

Yes, this forum gives a poster a "no fault grace period". I frequently use it to correct misspellings. And I don't have to mea culpa on spelling (or fat fingering).

After that expires, the post is there. The idea is that once people have started to read and respond to your post, going back and changing it is unethical, or at least it disrupts the integrity of the thread.

When the editors go back and catch offensive content, they generally edit out only the offensive portions and leave the remainder.

Comparing data on different systems is a tricky thing. It relies more on the analysis of human behaviour and less on technology than one would think. I've been doing that for over (SWMBO makes sure I say "over" now) forty years. I still make sure I consult with at least someone who seems to agree with my approach and someone who doesn't before I move forward with such an analysis at work.

I've used that grace period more than once!

I can see there's an activity log on the left side of, for example, the editor changes the title or removes inappropriate cross-posting but I can't see there's any markers to indicate when a post or thread is removed entirely, or is subsequently changed by the editors? But I am a gamer of little brain where IT is concerned.

I agree that later changes to a post that disrupts its integrity would be very inappropriate and unethical.

This is appalling behaivour on the part of TFL.

No doubt … high school stuff …

Sure, the "Kenneth" stuff was pretty childish (to declare an interest, I posted on one of them but, hey, I'm a Brit and we like our Benny Hill humour) but it was prompted by what appears to have been an inconsistent editorial approach to ‘product placement' on the forum pages, as I've mentioned elsewhere.

It's got stupidly out of hand since then. Our hobby is too small to have these disputes, and too open to criticism by politically correct types if we become too high profile – I'm sure my colonial gaming would not be approved of in some circles.

And, Bill, please stop saying "Woke" – we're not, and thankfully never can be that, because it's a stupid concept.

Should have been resolved privately between the two business owners involved, without we punters being involved at all.

To be blunt, however much I like his figures, Martin at PP should have grown some cojones, told the three (?) abusive emailers to f&ck off and stop telling him how to spend his advertising budget. If you're going to be consumer-facing in the 21st century you've got to be thick skinned enough to deal with the keyboard warriors out there and not publicise the fact you're traumatised by a few stupid emails from people who would, in the old days, be writing in green crayon because they're not allowed access to sharp implements.

Are we allowed to say "Man Up" these days?

Rant over, blame the (rather good single malt) whisky – maybe I need another one?

I'm pissed off Martin at Peter Pig has been targeted by the Lardies fanboys.

Wargamer Blue: I'd agree with you, as I've met Martin and have hundreds (thousands?) of his figures but his public post did seem a tad melodramatic in response to 3 or 4 critical emails, knowing how social media works these days.

Obviously, we have no idea as to the content of said mails – if they threatened violence he should report them to the police. Otherwise, I'd suggest a more appropriate response would be to reply to the sender in similar tome and get on with his weekend. How he then chooses to spend his advertising budget is entirely up to him.

I just wish this whole sorry saga had been dealt with privately between the parties involved rather than degenerate into public mud slinging across various platforms.

Just ordered two PDFs from PP thanks to the exposure here on TMP. Cheers.

+10 Gray Bear.

I'll be ordering from them soon, too, since Peter Pig and Martin are class acts.

I just wish this whole sorry saga had been dealt with privately between the parties involved rather than degenerate into public mud slinging across various platforms.

Yeppers to that.

it was prompted by what appears to have been an inconsistent editorial approach to ‘product placement' on the forum pages…

This is tinfoil hat territory, as far as I am concerned.

Supposedly there are "many more" commercial announcements of new products on the forum, which TMP staffers did not remove because we only hate TFL.

So, where are they? I keep asking, and someone sent me a link of an article from a year ago. That's it?

Someone is trying to build a conspiracy case over how TMP staffers singled out TFL to pick on over the new policy, seemingly to justify their own bad behavior, but where's the evidence?

WHERE?

I asked, in an earlier post, how the post ‘unboxing' the new Ancients rules from Plastic Soldier Company (in the Ancients Product Reviews Board), was OK, when its content was virtually identical to, and appeared at about the same time as the first post about .

I was reluctant to give any more examples at the time, in case it prompted more deletions (and it's these posts that I find most useful on the site) but I'll give you a couple more – there's a direct post by CP Models about their forthcoming 28mm Sumerians, and another drawing attention to the new Perspex figures from WuFigs. I haven't bothered to look beyond the Ancients board.

I'm only highlighting these so that your explanation can help all of us avoid further unexpected rule transgressions in future.

Some calls for Martin to "man up". Having met the guy few times strikes my as a nice guy and has been dealing with wargamers long enough not to be easily offended. But what makes you think it was him that read the emails is a business other members of staff could read it and been upset.

Wow. Firstly Martin is one of the nicest wargamers I've ever met. I've no idea how you manage to keep a company going in the modern world, where people want everything now and always want a discount (including me). I've bought some big armies from you in the past but only tend to buy little bits and pieces nowadays, however, I always love seeing your new products. Your love for the hobby and gamers is clear for all to see. The majority of your customers think you are brilliant. Don't get disheartened or worry :)
I'm sad to see yet another argument blow up and affect decent folk.
This is an unusual website. I do not wish to offend the editor here, but I also want to be honest. It is his website. We are all here by invitation only. There are rules, and I won't be the first to suggest they aren't always moderated consistently or fairly, but when you have one person in charge and it's their site then that is the case. If you feel aggrieved then complain, and if it doesn't get the reply you want you either have to choose to accept it or leave.
I have also bought TFL products in the past and have at times been a supporting member here, so have had a foot in all camps.
I do think that the editor can be rude and abusive in the way he handles these kind of things, but it's his site and he probably gets fed up with all the crap thrown at him, so it's understandable. I don't think a job I customer relations or a diplomat would be advised! However, there is clearly fault on the TFL side to. All the people targeting decent people like Martin are the real problem…the extremists if you like.
Well had my say…hopefully won't get dawghoused or banned for criticising the editor a bit, but if I do it was worth it for voicing my support for Martin and all at Peter Pig.

I do agree badwargamer. Both sides in this nonsense war should sit and think a bit around. Especially after, as a result of it, the most notorious casualty has been a third party – PP.

I haven't seen any suggestion in this discussion that TFL doesn't have a beef. I have very little dealings with the Editor in Chief while on TMP. I don't even really know the full extent of the complaint.

Why I think this is poor form for TFL is that if you don't like the experience of TMP try and work it out with the owner. If that doesn't work out withdraw from TMP. I don't mind TFL telling everyone why they withdrew from the TMP. I don't mind TFL suggesting the people stop supporting TMP. Hey, start up your rival miniatures page. What I do object to is willful harm of TMP. Our hobby is small enough and each cog in the wheel fills an important niche. If something better comes along I will be in but destroying TMP doesn't advance our hobby.

Sadly (because I much prefer them to the current alternatives), I think traditional forums like this are in terminal decline as gamers increasingly turn to FB, Twitter and other more focused social media.

Lead Adventure Forum is good for pretty pictures, less so for informed comment on topics, which used to be a real strength of TMP. Newcomers on the block like The Wargames Website are worthy but a bit dull and don't yet have the traffic to encourage me to visit daily, even after a couple of years.

It's a pity that TMP and TFL weren't able to resolve their differences privately if not amicably.

I'm now off to paint some of the new Wargames Factory plastic Afghans.

Having been in lock down since February for health reasons the whole thing seems like cabin / lockdown fever. I totally agree with Martin and Leo too much time on hands, that could be better spent working on their lead mountains.

ENOUGH OF THE HE SAID /SHE SAID – SORT IT !!!

I am off the grid as far as social media is concerned which has presented its own issues as work organisations expect you to be on Whatsap and have the latest smart phone.

With the current atmosphere in the UK I,m expecting the mob to storm Warhammer World and throw the statue of the space marine in the river.

+1 Basha, Llius and Marcus.

And, also at the risk of being snipped, I have to agree with Basha that there have been a lot of selective forum postings about news items breaking the TMP house rules. I'm not saying they are intentional in any way shape or form, but they have indeed slipped through, which is understandable.

Part of the trouble is, by necessity, the very nebulous nature of the rule itself. How long is "new"? What exactly is a "review"? Is an unboxing of a new product a review? It does seem a trifle capricious in the application of the rules at times. Which was one of my arguments against the implementation of the rule in the beginning.

That said, has anyone looked at the Crowdfunding message board? It was my understanding that announcements about new Kickstarters were verboten, and yet how many on that board are exactly that?

I'm not implying that there is selective censorship going on, but one can see how the perception might have developed. Especially after a very selective censorship was indeed imposed about the I,I rules. Whether you think it was justifiable, fair or not, it definitely fanned the flames and fed into that perception.

Humans and our apophenia.

Bill's clarification of the use of the ‘complaint' button was helpful, and I can understand, given the workload, how some such posts might be overlooked by the editors.

I'd forgotten about Kickstarters and other crowdfunding being covered by the ban and, as you say, I now see that part of the forum looks unchanged from pre-rule change days.

Given that the rule is tucked away in FAQs and (for whatever reason) inconsistently applied, it's hardly surprising that many contributors don't know it exists, have forgotten it or assume that it's been quietly shelved after the protests that were made when it was first introduced.

And I can't help thinking that we've all stumbled into precisely the trap that one troublemaking Frother created when he (if it was actually him and not a single-shot sock puppet) apparently first proposed such a policy change last year, a suggestion subsequently adopted by Bill.

That said, has anyone looked at the Crowdfunding message board?

Oh I can go way better than that! I have been a regular on TMP for 15 years and never knew this "Talk" board existed before this current lunacy.

TMP is a labyrinth which, unless they have a specific reason to navigate, many (myself included) do not venture past the bits they want to see.

ENOUGH OF THE HE SAID /SHE SAID – SORT IT !!!

False equivalency.

When another company is trying to drive you out of business, you can't just walk away.

When another company's forum has been used to make abusive comments about TMP staffers, it would be immoral to say nothing.

Go down the legal route or pull your facebook account, the two edged sword of social media – can't live with it, can't live without it ?

Trajanus, I know what you mean – sometimes ignorance IS bliss.

I'm sticking mainly to the 19th century boards from now on, and talking about toys, as commenting on car crashes, while quite compulsive, leaves me feeling a bit grubby

Sad to see trolling of a trader over his advertising as a trader myself I don't see why I would have to justify where, with who or why I run adverts.
I've had no experience of this myself as a trader but I have been trolled a few times on comments made on youtube. Its best to just ignore them and don't take the bait, if they know your hooked they won't leave youalone.Mostly they are keyboard warriors and I doubt they would say the same things if face to face.
If however they are issuing threats then that needs repoting. Sorry you've had to go through this

Another advertiser is also being "shamed" on Facebook. They even posted his private email to them.

facebook.com/precinctomega

This is not good. Wargaming has been my hobby for over 50 years and my escape from the real world problems. Now it seems the insidious sniping through social media is now creeping in to my hobby as well.

This is the sort of thing Martin has to put up with:

This is currently on the TFL forum on Facebook.

@Frontline Tim
completely agree. keyboardmen in all over the world are all the same.

Noboby are happy with Bill's New policy, but this does not justify this kind of agression. Yes, Bill almost have monopoly and fight against monopolies are always good thing to do, but not with rude crusade and in our miniatures world.

At the end this new policy will ruin TMP by natural way and even Tango cannot be able to prevent this. This is question of time. So why fight?
Can you offer better solutions to substitute TMP? Also not.
Thanks to entrenched monopoly positions TMP can stand a lot of time and crusade, as violent outside force, will led to even stronger resistance. Because nobody likes bullies and crusaders are bigger bullies than Bill now. They charge third part persons with slogan – who are not with me are against me. This is communist/muscovites way and cannot be supported by normal people.

Not sure monopoly is correct word. There are other forums. TMP is, I think, the biggest but that is not because Bill has forced the others out of business.

It might not be fair, but is it fair that David Beckham plays better football than me, or Gordon Ramsey is a better cook?

In the interest of fairness should Bill tell some advertisers, to use different sites? ( though I can think of one company he might) perhaps tell 1 in 3 member to leave to balance out the numbers?

I agree, Gunnerphil, monopoly wasn't correct word before New Policy.
But after new dictated terms and lack of other possibilities, it is. Even if TMP is better than other possible possibilities, using their position on market to dictate unfair terms makes them monopoly. But TMP have full rights to act as monopoly if he can. We may complain but crusade against third persons is overkill.

Sho Boki, If TFL was a small company just starting I could feel sorry for them. But if Bill let's them off why should any body pay for advertising.

The attacks on 3rd parties, then the spite poured on them for making a complaint says a lot.

The "cheeky schoolboy, just having a larf" attitude can go too far.

There is a difference in culture between UK and USA, this is clear. We were raised in Carry On films so understand the references. The rest of the world does not. I tried to introduce Spanish friends to IABSM and they just did not seen the humour. The other titles were lost on them.

Fine TFL disagree with the policy, their choice. Many of their fans dislike TMP, again their choice. But to try and destroy something that many other people enjoy is childish spite.

Please do not try claim the are doing it for good reasons. It spite pure and simple

Sho Boki,
Why do you think TMP has a monopoly? People are free to frequent other forums, or even start up their own. Its not as if TMP can prevent or make it difficult for competitors to start their own websites and make money too. If a competing website wants to have advertising on their websites, they can. They can even try to undercut whatever TMP charges.

But to use the Facebook mob to try and crush your competitors, or just to get even, is extortion, plain and simple. People have just got to push back against this – its effectively economic terrorism.

I think the only people who are unhappy with the new policy are those moochers who want free advertising time without paying for it, and who have leveraged the social media mob to act like bullies. I wonder if the outrage mercenaries in the Facebook arena are getting paid to show up and feign outrage, as if the fact that they are "offended" is sufficient reason for everyone else to change what they are doing to placate them. Too many people seem to think that they are more important than they really are and if they whine and fuss enough that somebody will take care of their complaints and shut them up, like a toddler. Special snowflake syndrome I call it.

See here: link

Don't understand me wrong, Gunnerphil, in this case I say nothing against Bill and, if you read my previous posts, I am first to defend Bill's positions in this case. Also my people loves British black humour a lot. What I said on post above, was impartial analyze of situation, not blaming Bill. Bill does nothing wrong here, but his New Policy are sign of monopoly.

Billclo, but I said exactly the same – crusade is form of terror. And Bill do everything right here. But when you say: "the only people who are unhappy with the new policy are those moochers who want free advertising time without paying for it", I must disagree. I pay and I don't want free advertising time. But I want to talk with people on forums as in earlier days and show them my sculpting efforts. And this is not allowed by New Policy.

Why TMP is monopoly? Because TMP is the best and biggest old school Forum with biggest number of users. And thanks to Tango, who keep Forums live. This was good monopoly. New Policy shattered it. But this is Bill's will and we cannot revolt against it with filthy crusades. May be Bill is right and the New Policy are good for TMP. We never know before we try.

Sho Boki, I see your point, but is not a monopoly, but is market leader.

It is a business not a charity. For some reason people can not get their head round that. If was a traditional print newspaper would people expect free advertising? The only way round the no free adverts is to make TMP subscription only. That way we all lose.

I am an old capitalist, so I see Bill's point.

I understand your point also, Gunnerphil, but if market leader are big enough to have almost all "customers" and couple of others are invisible, then the leader are almost monopoly. And I started with this description – almost monopoly.

I agree with you that it is business and not a charity.
But.. at first it is BIG Forum. So I, as "customer", come here to have conversation on forums and read news there. Right?
I don't need advertises. Right?
I don't go to front page, I set link directly to part of forums which interests me. To avoid excessive clicks. Right?
Now.. under New Policy I don't see there news anymore and also I am not allowed to talk about news there. Right?
And if I pay for advertising I don't need, I am not allowed to talk in forums anyway. Right?
Paid or not paid, you don't be allowed to talk in forums.
So I also see TFL point here.. they are not allowed to talk about their rules even they will pay.

So you, as old capitalist, tell me, what the hell I do here anymore as "customer"?
How anybody will win in this situation?

Of course, if I am interested only about advertises, then all is OK.

But rules can discussed, and games can be reported, so can read about.

I think the whole thing has become a furball. There are possible answers. But right now emotions are running high.

I think that at some point solution will be found. Because if there is no news of new products, then footfall will drop away. I, like you, only go to boards that interest me. As long as there is interesting stuff I will keep coming.

Perhaps, once dust has settled, a 2 tier system. People who pay, Bigger banners, stay on front page longer, non payers allowed an announcement. Maybe be a charge per Victor directed by TMP.

There are solutions, but acting like spoilt children as TFL have done,is not one of them.

I have said before if advertising here did not work, why would TFL be complaining.

@Martin – I want to place an ACW order. How many come in a pack?

Better yet – how do I email you? I'd like to get a small ACW army for Fire and Fury.

TMP link

TFL need to be very, very, VERY careful here.

I've rejoined as a supporting member and will be looking at Peter Pig's site next.

I keep seeing the word 'attack' when describing the TFL and fans approach to sponsors of TMP. Attack is incorrect. It is not an attack. It's a polite approach. I have not seen a single threat. I suspect maybe some over zealous fans have said more, however I see that from both sides. If I was to get one, Id politely reply 'Thanks for your email, I will give it the full time I think it deserves' or simply ignore it? Really not that hard to deal with. If you are upset by someone approaching you with an opinion then you are more in trouble then you think….

This is indicative (erm if thats right word) of the times we live in. Which to be fair is really truly ########

You are on our side or you are the enemy and you must die!

If everyone remained calm here the problem would never of got out of hand in the first place.