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"Ideas to Welcome More Women to Wargaming?" Topic


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Tango0123 Jun 2020 10:26 p.m. PST

"Last week we asked why women are so much less likely to play historical wargames than sci-fi or fantasy games. In this video we're bringing back Amanda, Veronica, and Becky to gain some insights on how those of us currently in the hobby could grow the female gaming audience. This is a large potential source of new players for a hobby in the midst of generational change."

YouTube link

Amicalement
Armand

JimSelzer24 Jun 2020 1:35 a.m. PST

try showcasing or using fewer miniatures with big boobs and butts with little to no clothes or armor wearing stiletto heels

Yesthatphil24 Jun 2020 4:01 a.m. PST

Women are welcome, and there are no barriers in the clubs or events I attend. We have female members and players. OK, it isn't a 50/50 split (but then nor was the Womens Institute crowd I recently did a Naseby presentation to: there are interest areas and clubs that traditionally appeal more to one social group than another) … but the proportion of females is higher than suggested. More important, it doesn't matter: come along and join in if you want to.

Phil

Tgerritsen Supporting Member of TMP24 Jun 2020 5:03 a.m. PST

Jim, in historical miniatures there are few depictions of women with stilettos and big butts and boobs that I have come across. In fact, those are staples of the fantasy and sci-fi genres, which have much higher participation rates by women than historical miniatures already. The question is how to get more women in historical games.

Since the depictions you mention don't seem to affect women playing sci fi or fantasy games, somehow I don't think that is the answer. These discussions always seem to devolve down into men being the problem, but that is simplistic and wrong as well. Men being simply more welcoming is to me a straw man argument. Bringing up stereotypes of bad gamers (who are often bad gamers whether or not a woman is at the table) is not the solution, either.

The problem is two-fold. Military history appeals to more men than women. Is that bad, or simply a reality? That isn't to say that there are not fantastic women who enjoy military history, just that it is less common.

Second, the truth is that many women want to participate in areas where they feel represented. Outside of a very few battles, the participants in the fighting were almost exclusively male. There seems to be a movement that feels we should make battles the way we want history to have been rather than as it was. By this I mean having an army include women or people of color where historically there weren't any. This seems to be a growing movement in video and board games where you see games with persons of color being in key numbers in rifle squads storming the beaches at D-Day, and women as part of bomber crews in World War 2.

This is historically inaccurate, but to the people who advocate this, the goal isn't accuracy, but inclusion. However, is simply fielding Vikings of color and Napoleonic women cavalry really a solution?

There is a separate movement that says we should simply not focus on history that is male-centric or based in European culture to promote inclusion.

This approach opens up interesting avenues, like focusing on battles where Indian or East Asian, or African troops were heavily engaged, or where women played a larger role. However, in the case of women in battle there are far fewer examples to choose from, and in the case of non-European centric battles, it forces a bit of cognitive dissonance to ignore a huge swath of history or forces the current majority of players to deny their own connections to that history in favor of groups that are not inclusive of them. Even then, I'm not convinced as I see many Samurai era, Chinese historical, or SubSaharan African games in play, and that doesn't seem to create any appreciable uptick in non-white players. We could do an experiment and reserve, say, a single Cold Wars to only include non-euro centric games and advertise it as such, but would that really make more difference than, say, having an all fantasy and sci-fi con?

I don't think there are any simple fixes to this problem, or really any proof that this is a problem other than to a select few who feel performative need to express their own feelings of a perceived guilt.

We no longer seem to accept interests based on gender or certain cultures. This can be very good, but can also end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I would love it if my wife would play What A Tanker or Lion Rampant or Wings of Glory with me. She would not, no matter how inclusive I would make those. Even if I did a Girls Un Panzer game she'd be uninterested (she hates that show). However, if I put an army of Dwarves on the table (even if they are all male) she is in. She will also play Sci fi games (again even if the army is all male). She finds history Gaming as dull as dirt (she loves the Last Kingdom and even though I am slowly painting Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, she has zero interest in gaming it).

My eldest daughter I tried to get into historical war gaming. She even played in an Uncle Duke extravaganza at age 11 in a game with ancient Egyptians Vs Hittites. She did it because I wanted her to, but didn't really want to go back. Everyone was incredibly welcoming and friendly to her. She would much rather play Pokémon or a Godzilla game to this day now that she is an adult.

The most fun I ever had in a Historicon game was in a Warhammer 40k game run by a black game group. It wasn't historical but I never laughed so much in a game before or since. It was amazing, so maybe humor is an answer.

This is no simple issue and no matter how you slice it, a smaller percentage of women will prefer historical war gaming than men. Is that easily overcome? Is it even necessary to try? Or do we simply remain as welcoming as we can be and accept those percentages?

Decebalus24 Jun 2020 6:09 a.m. PST

Woman are very engaged in roleplaying games even if (like in Ad&D) there are big boobs or stilettos. So that is obviously not the problem. But RPGs are centered around social interaction, whereas tabletop is centered around strategic decisions.

arthur181524 Jun 2020 8:43 a.m. PST

Could part of the situation – not sure it's a 'problem' – be that the majority of girls/women simply don't seem to be as interested in military history and/or making miniature models of military figures and vehicles, let alone playing games about warfare?

My (adult) daughter likes – occasionally – to make a plastic kit. Recently she did a good job on a WWI Albatros scout, the decals for which portrayed a plane flown by Verner Voss.

Did she read the historical background in the instruction leaflet? No.
Was she interested to see a documentary about Voss I found on the internet? No.
Did I try to interest her in a WWI air-combat game? Guess!

dapeters24 Jun 2020 8:57 a.m. PST

Lol Jim you silly man, I am sure one could write a dissertation on this just using TMP post as the data. But just not just women there another thread, that demonstrates that we are a bunch of old white men who don't know and don't care to know.

TGerritsen – as for historic I have thought that the "geying off the hobby" was not real, but if it's true we need to be more inclusive.

Tango0124 Jun 2020 12:22 p.m. PST

(smile)


Amicalement
Armand

Ten Fingered Jack24 Jun 2020 4:36 p.m. PST

Do we want women to intrude in yet another male sphere?
Repeal the 19th Amendment !

Tgerritsen Supporting Member of TMP24 Jun 2020 5:47 p.m. PST

dapters, sure, but my note above wasn't that we shouldn't be more inclusive- we should always be inclusive and welcoming- but about the problems of how to do so. It's really easy to be performative and say 'be more inclusive,' but it's a lot harder to adopt concrete solutions on how.

I pointed out the two most popular approaches currently being used and why I am not sure how they will impact things.

Thresher0124 Jun 2020 10:41 p.m. PST

I'm fine if women want to play, but don't really see it as a huge problem if/when they don't want to participate.

I don't feel the need to cajole, force, or lure them into doing something they're really not interested in.

TFJ may be on to something. (LOL)

Be careful what you wish for.

Tango0125 Jun 2020 12:14 p.m. PST

Dude…! (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Striker25 Jun 2020 11:38 p.m. PST

Like any other group or game, if someone wants to play/join welcome them like anyone else, there's no "luring" women to play. Plenty of males are put off by gamers and gaming groups and that's based on personalities and lack of social skills. If a group is not interested in having anyone but their buddies play then make that known and most people are going to follow that. If you want new gamers to play with then act like it.

Uparmored27 Jun 2020 7:18 a.m. PST

I enjoyed your excellent post TGerritsen

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