"Scale and Basing Questions for AWI" Topic

Hi guys,

I'm looking for a bit of advice and to get some current thoughts on old debates. I first bought the British Grenadier rules in 2009 (or so) and since have been slowly (off and on between other projects) collecting AWI figures in 28mm. I consider myself slightly more of a painter than a gamer so figure detail is important to me. But I have finally resigned myself to the fact that I will never have enough figures painted in that scale play anything more than a skirmish – in any era. Skirmish gaming can be fun – especially with some pulp elements thrown in – but I want to be able to replay historical battles.

I played a game of BG at Fall-in in 15mm and was really impressed with (i) the quality of the Blue Moon Figures and (ii) the aesthetic of a big battle game in a smaller scale. I have come to realize a few things. First, I do not have the money or space to do a large battle game in 28mm. Second, I need something I can get on the field in under a decade. Third, I really like the aesthetic of the mass troop/epic scale figures.

Now the question: I'm keen on embarking on an AWI big battle project and am considering 10mm or 6mm. Which way to go? I liked the 15mm Blue Moon figures, and bough a few sample packs, but want more of a mass troop look. A few years ago I took up ACW in 10mm (GHQ figures) and ancients for DBA in 6mm (Baccus). One of my key considerations for the AWI era is how to base them.

My 10mm ACW infantry are based in two ranks of 4 on a 1" by 3/4" base. I like the look, but think it could be even more epic. With these dimensions, a 4 base battalion is still way too deep for its length and the number of figures representing a battalion is still relatively few.

My 6mm Ancients are based using the frontage of the 25mm standard. I love the mass troop look, but worry that the 6mm figs do not satisfy my desire for more detailed painting.

I understand that the 10mm Old Glory figures come in 1" strips of 5. This would nicely replicate what I've done with ACW, but with 10 guys per stand rather than 8. I am a bit taken by the Pendraken 10mm AWI figures, with which I would try to do the same thing.

The 6mm figures (probably using Baccus again) could be based on 40mm x 20mm bases (4 strips per base in 2 ranks of 8 guys). Using this method, each Battalion would be longer and thinner, which dimensions would be more "true to life".

This turned into more of a statement of my dilemma than asking any pointed questions, but I'd be interested in opinions on the scales and my two basing strategies.

I'd likely be trying to play either British Grendadier or Fire and Fury using the AWI rule amendments.

One follow up question: What are peoples thoughts on the Old Glory figures being too tightly packed (5 to an inch) for this period and the fact that line troops may have fought in looser order in the Americas.
Thanks!
Matt

One of my key considerations for the AWI era is how to base them.

That would entirely depend on the rules you intend to use.

With these dimensions, a 4 base battalion is still way too deep for its length

That will always be the case when using miniatures. Unless you go for a 1:1 figure representation.

A minor consideration, but a consideration: Baccus really seems to gear for 60mm units. For one thing, the command element is always going to seem a bit lopsided in a two-strip frontage. Surely 60mm frontage and six strips per unit isn't going to overwhelm your table size or budget?

That said--and my Baccus order will be going in shortly--10mm 2x2 bases have some serious advantages advantages in AWI. That Baccus unit, nice as it looks, just screams "I'm a battalion/regiment!"--and thus somewhere around 240 rank and file. Given the huge differences in size of AWI battle, and sometimes between units within a battle, there's something to be said for a system which lets you say "for Brandywine, this stand represents 80 men, but for some Pickens battle in the Carolinas, it may be 10 men" and let differing numbers of stands represent a regiment. Much easier to do with 2x2 10mm. I'm not sure about those Old Glory strips. Mind you, your rules have to be equally flexible, or you need multiple rules using the same basing.

But all any of us can do is point out consequences of your decisions. Ultimately wargaming, like life, is a matter of choices. Decide what's most important to you, and let that dictate the other choices.

Have you looked at Pendraken's 10mm AWI figures? They are gorgeous; as well or better sculpted and detailed than other companies' 15mm figures-the sculptor (Clibinarium) posts here occasionally, or has in the past. They are just a tad bigger than most other Pendraken 10mm figures, but the range is reasonably complete (no Spanish for example, but quite a variety of British uniforms and Continental uniforms and militia) and so you probably won't need to supplement it with figures from other ranges. I recommend looking at the Pendraken AWI figures before making a final decision.

Thanks, Dennis.

I actually ordered a few sample packs just yesterday form Dark Horse hobbies here in the US. I am very keen to see them. The photos I've seen look magnificent. Any thoughts on how best to base them for game play, rule set flexibility and/or look?

Also, can anyone confirm what uniform the Old Glory 10 Brits are wearing? I assume its the 1768 Warrant?

Many thanks,
Matt

Using a DBX system with 1 base is 1 unit greatly facilitates getting the wonderful variety of uniforms into your collection. Also facilitates fighting a wider range of historical actions with the units in correct uniforms.

Matt:

My guess would be, as you assume, that the Old Glory 10mm AWI Brits are 1768 warrant, but I've never seen them so don't know for sure. I do know that Old Glory lists only one pack each for Brit line infantry, Grens and lights, so the variety for the Pendraken figures is much greater.

The Old Glory 10mm strips have the advantage of looking pretty good in mass and, depending on your style of painting, being somewhat easier to paint. With that said, I'm not much of a fan-albeit I do have thousands of the Old Glory 10mm ECW pikemen and cavalry. The pikemen because I hate cast-on pikes (the Old Glory come without pikes and it's fairly easy to add wire pikes) and the cavalry because they more or less match Pendraken's 10mm ECW cavalry in size and the Pendraken range is very limited. I'd suggest you get a few samples of Old Glory's 10mm figures to see the quality of the figures. I don't have any AWI, but I could send you a strip or two of Old Glory's 10mm ECW figs if you want to get some idea of the style on the cheap.

I think you will be pleased with the Pendraken figures, particularly as a painter. I've painted a few as a test (I have a large pre-existing bunch of painted 15mm AWI figures and so don't want to change figure scales although I am tempted) and find them to be an outstanding compromise between enough detail to look very good without having a bunch of fiddly details that are too much trouble to paint and can't be seen anyway.

As for basing, I agree with MajorB and Robert Piepenbrink, it will depend on what you want. Unless you use a figure to man ratio approaching 1 to 1, no matter how you base your figures the depth of your tabletop units when they are deployed in line will be greatly deeper than a real life unit. Consequently, I go for visual impression rather than strict accuracy. To me a single figure deep line just doesn't look right-albeit the depth would be more nearly correct (you should be able to find some discussions on TMP about one-deep vs. two-deep lines, IIRC John the OFM led several of them)-so I base my figures two deep with the frontage depending on the size of the unit. There are discussions concerning the problems with figure size, figure to man ratios and the resulting problems with scale depth of formations here in the past and elsewhere that explain the problem better than I have-IIRC, there were lots of such discussions in the hobby, not necessarily on TMP, when Napoleon's Battles first came out inasmuch as it mostly finessed the problem by using brigade basing. Volley and Bayonet may also have generated similar discussions.

There is also an occasional poster here (Forward March Studios) who prints 2mm figure blocks to more accurately represent the footprint of a unit during the horse and musket period. There may be some discussions about figure to man ratios in connection with his posts.

With all that said, unless you use something approaching a 1 to 1 figure to man ratio and small figures, you will have to accept that your units are too deep for any formation except column-but that has been the case with the miniature wargaming hobby from the beginning of time.

As for miniature rules, I like Peter Pig's Washington's Army in its original version, but I like it for its command and control features and not because it accurately represents the size and shape of actual formations-which it doesn't.

What game did you play at Fall In? I'm trying to understand your statement/question lol

Dennis,
Thank you for another thoughtful response and offer to provide a sample. I just ordered a single pack of Old Glory Confederate infantry to check out and to compare against my GHQ ACW stuff. The AWI figures seem harder to come by in the secondary market, but I hope the Confederates will be representative.

HistoryGamer,
It was the Battle of Springfield. I think you may have hosted it. If so, great game. Beautiful table and miniatures. I was responsible for charging the 17th Dragoons over the bridge in the last turn in futile attempt to open a gap. May their bravery and honor be forever remembered – or at least until we can all get back to a convention!

Hi

I started my own AWI project back in March using 10mm Pendraken figures. They have been a joy to paint and I have not regretted it for one second. I have based them for the AWI Fire and Fury variant but using the 6mm ground scale option (so a normal 1" base becomes 3/4", mainly due to space limitations) and have 3 figures on a base. I also intend to use Nigel Marsh's Carnage and Glory II computer based rules as well. Really enjoying the whole experience so far, just looking forward to when I can play a game face to face with my friends.

Cheers Paul

I'm planning a Pendraken 10mm AWI game set in 1777 in epic scale at the SYW Convention in August. My battalions will be around 60 to 70 men. Rules are my own.

Wealdmaster – I am attending SYWC in August. Very interested in your game.