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"Amphibious Landing Rules" Topic


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ScoutJock07 Jun 2020 5:10 p.m. PST

How do you handle fire combat against landing craft in a 1:1 game?

None of the rule sets I looked in really address it, WRG, Jagdpanzer, CD, BC or MATG.

The only thing I found is in Panzer Leader where units considered on landing craft have an armored defense rating of 8 which corresponds to a Sherman tank in that game.

I primarily play WRG so would it be reasonable to assume smaller craft such as LCIs or LCVPs have an armor value of D, similar to a Sherman tank, with larger landing craft such as LCMs have an armor value of C and LCTs have a B armor value when using regular direct fire combat?

Alternatively do I leave the value as D and require multiple kills for larger landing craft?

Comments, ideas, other suggestions appreciated.

rmaker07 Jun 2020 5:46 p.m. PST

LCVP's, LCA's, etc. were made of plywood. Giving them the same protective value as any tank, much less a medium, is just plain wrong. At that rate, a frame house would provide better protection than a King Tiger!

SBminisguy07 Jun 2020 8:01 p.m. PST

In NUTS WW2 skirmish only the bow landing door is armored and can protect against small arms, LMG/MMG and shrapnel. It is otherwise unarmored from other aspects, and since it is Open Topped it provides no cover or protection against airbursts or shells.

Rudysnelson07 Jun 2020 10:13 p.m. PST

It is a transport item and most house rules treat it as such.
Mass target plus as you would with a truck or halftrack. The mass because of the crowded in the landing craft.
In regards to protection whether you go minimal or halftrack. Any protection value would be canceled by the crowded situation of the passengers.

Thresher0108 Jun 2020 12:59 a.m. PST

Yea, pretty much halftrack-level (side and rear armor) protection for them, since even Destroyers don't really have any armor either, and are far, far larger.

David Manley08 Jun 2020 1:33 a.m. PST

"LCVP's, LCA's, etc. were made of plywood.2

LCVPs maybe, LCAs had steel protection against bullets and fragments (which was also extended to overhead protection) to the passenger and crew compartments (not sure if it extended to the engines) and were outfitted with permanent buoyancy to prevent rapid sinking. Design features carried forward into post-war designs for the RM

Fitzovich Supporting Member of TMP08 Jun 2020 3:04 a.m. PST

I'm a big fan of WRG rules and believe that they pretty much got it right the first time so I stick with them. As to the question on landing craft, the LCVPs and alike. I would go with F front and No side armor for the boat. I would include some reflection of size as they get larger as it would probably take a couple of hits to put them out of action. You might also add in a dice roll for the infantry on board for their survival depending upon how far they are from the beach. That can be accomplished by establishing pre game a few range bands on the approach. Band 1 gets a 75% chance, Band 2 a 50% chance and anything farther out are lost with the boat.

Gear Pilot08 Jun 2020 6:36 a.m. PST

WRG?

David Manley08 Jun 2020 7:04 a.m. PST

Wargames Research Group

Dynaman878908 Jun 2020 8:42 a.m. PST

IABSM had rules covering landing craft. Charlie Can't Surf had riverine opertions and craft which could be modified.

Then there is ASL. None of those are 1 to 1 as such but the vessels are all individual units in those games. There is also Lock N Load Tactical's Heroes of the Pacific.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP08 Jun 2020 11:14 a.m. PST

ODGW's Mein Panzer ruleset has a pretty tight core set, but then provides a wide variety of "add-on" chapters that gamers can use or ignore at their choice.

One add-on chapter is for integration of naval and amphibious forces into the game.

Landing craft are handled as either assault craft (amphibious vehicles) or landing craft (beachable transport boats and ships). Either is subject to area fire or direct fire. The various models of each are included in the data tables for each country.

It may be all fine to want a simple approach, but if you're going to do an amphibious scenario I would think you'd want to be able to distinguish, for example, between an LVT, an LCVP, and an LSI.


Suggesting that a 37mm gun, which can penetrate "F" armor easily, can destroy an LSI(M) with a single hit is not going to give me the results I would want on my gaming table.

-Mark
(aka: MK 1)

UshCha05 Mar 2021 2:22 a.m. PST

Intresting this. We tend to play modern so most are AFV's and we count them as Hull down when swimming as water is quite good protection. In WW2 I suspect when swimming they are really almost invulnerable to Area fire because:-

1) They are moving, continiously moving the point of aim for a battery is tricky if not impossible.
2) Most ammunition is impact fused, this was a problem with swamp, which is mainly water so I would expect it was similarly so with water, plus waves could upset range issues and only direct hits would count and they are rare for an area fire weapon.

Machine guns may be effective but again the target is small and moving and for instance in Normany the opertunity may not be great for precise aimed fire as the troops debussed at low tide so a fair range evene as the debussed. Again troops on the beach are easier as they are spread out and have to pass through a beaten zone and are closer.

Long range shooting by such as 37mm may be effective but the aim of supporting fires was to suppress/obscure such fire untill the last possible moment. However its a large target with relatively few "critical" regions, so some lives may be lost but sinking the ship is quite hard.

Once beached then 1) and 2) don't apply so vulnerable, but as they debuss quickly the exposure of the troops within the vessle is small, unless targeted by a MG gunner waiting for the door to drop. This is why the aim was for all to beach at once to minimise the opertunities for this.

The Duppex Shermans were of loaded relaticvely close to shore, some omn the shore, most made it to the beach before being lost. The US shermans were mainly lost due to poor seamenship, the recent find of a line of them broadside to the waves is a good indicator for this. Again indicating hitting a moving target at sea is not an easy one for many reasons.

Wolfhag07 Mar 2021 9:02 a.m. PST

Per Mark 1 stating the different models of which there are many.

Here is a site that gives the details you may need: afvdb.50megs.com/usa/index.html

Wolfhag

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP07 Mar 2021 1:21 p.m. PST

You think Shermans are tricky. I am learning, but can still struggle.

Landing craft are worse, but I am better there. An LSI is a landing ship. It is dirty great ship that drops small infantry landing craft off either side and away they go to the shore. An LST we all know. Smaller and can beach and unload directly through the bow doors.

Those British(?) infantry are actually heading down the ramps of an LCI(L) the landing craft infantry large (Mediterranean?)
as distinct from the LCI(S), S for small, which landed commandos on D-Day and proved very fragile indeed.

Was the biggest threat to Landing Craft truly artillery fire or mined beach obstacles? My hunch is that, by D Day, it was more the latter, but I will bet there is some contemporary analysis either way.

Wolfhag's link is a great resource for any US AFV

Legionarius25 May 2022 3:30 p.m. PST

Landing craft, especially the small ones, were extremely vulnerable to enemy fire. They relied on having a whole armada of friendly destroyers, cruisers, and battleships pounding coastal defenses with their heavy artillery for suppressive fire. The Allied landings succeeded because of the heavy naval gunfire and air support.

RichAB11 Jun 2023 10:10 p.m. PST

The armor is around 0.5inch in those spots like the LCVPs door. However loaded craft are low in the water giving the water an armor effect. The largest problem I see is an open top danger for mortar fire and any plunge fire. Plus being a "cork" on a bobbing ocean. So I would go for Light Tank armor with no top armor. Plus wide open when the ramps drop down. (Ask my Dad Signal Corps veteran of Omaha Beach 6JUN1944.

typhoon201 Sep 2023 3:24 a.m. PST

The defences at Normandy were geared towards oblique engagement of disembarked infantry at high tide. Very few craft were deliberately engaged while on the run in; most fell foul of the various obstacles, that were semi-submerged due to the choppy waters, or indirect fires from larger weapons (mortars tended to be focused on the shoreline).

Assuming you ahistorically wish to engage craft as they approach, they'd make quite a challenging taregt as they disappear into troughs or briefly rise up on waves. If your rules give cover modifications then they'd certainly apply. As well-discussed by others, arnour varies but I'd suggest truck or possibly half-track would be appropriate. A lot of rounds would be slowed or nullified by the sea. A direct hit by indirect fire would almost certainly be catastrophic.

Wolfhag01 Sep 2023 4:22 p.m. PST

On D-Day the U.S. Navy had 1,089 LCVPs in the United Kingdom, of which 839 were used to shuttle Allied soldiers from the invasion transports to the Normandy beaches. Eighty-one were lost on D-Day or shortly afterward, including fifty-five at Omaha Beach.

So it appears to be about a 10% overall loss but maybe 20% on Omahu Beach.

Here is a great narrative to give you an idea of the action: link

Wolfhag

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