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"When were Games Workshop games *not* for everyone??" Topic


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Report from Gamex 2005

Our Man in Southern California, Wyatt the Odd, reports on the Gamex 2005 convention.


1,185 hits since 5 Jun 2020
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo SBminisguy Supporting Member of TMP05 Jun 2020 7:43 p.m. PST

This guy has a funny take on it:
YouTube link

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP05 Jun 2020 9:01 p.m. PST

In the past, now, and forever.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian05 Jun 2020 11:05 p.m. PST

So will there be gay Space Marines now? Will Black Orks be actually 'black'? Will female characters no longer be objectified?

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 4:08 a.m. PST

I think they are going to make all the Nurge worshipers Chinese. After all, it is the year of the (metal) rat.

Seriously, pick a group with which you identify. Now tell me the WH/40K the game faction with which you would like them to be identified.

OK, slightly less than group equality, pick a group with which you identify. Now fill in the extra blank. "I really wish when people thought of [group], they realized that we too can [insert faction behaviour here]."

That last blank … Let's see …

Be xenophobic
Run an inquisition
Spread disease (I like Nurgle, so they're here twice)
Extend the bounds of hedonistic sadism
Accept every living thing as legitimate collateral damage
Participate in cannibalism
Worship indiscriminate killing

I always thought the milieu was more geared toward absurd escapism rather than empathy and identifications.

arthur181506 Jun 2020 5:05 a.m. PST

Could this 'diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures' be simply part of a 'cunning plan' to persuade their customers that they must buy extra figures so their armies reflect the values of diversity &c?

"In addition to your Core Straight troops, your army must include at least one squad/battalion/warband/faction of each of:
Gay Space Marines [who sing 'Double you, aitch, four, oh, kay' with hand gestures]
Lesbian Dark Elves
Female Orks or Dwarves
Bisexual Bolt Throwers
and Trans-formers

Failure to field appropriately diverse armies will result in immediate disqualification from competitions and exclusion from all Games Workshop Stores."

Surely GW was always 'not' for people who wanted playable rules at a reasonable price!

jurgenation Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 5:45 a.m. PST

Not for everyone..Price gouging Company.That will only support it;s product.but not any conventions .I have tried to put up a flyer at our local Warhammer store here in Omaha for a local convention and before I got two words out of mouth came No!!!even though we wanted there participation at the Con.figured good for their buisness.but NOOOOOo!,,so they can …..take that Hypoctrical statement..and have a pleasant day.

Personal logo SBminisguy Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 8:50 a.m. PST

Not for everyone..Price gouging Company.That will only support it;s product.

Yeah -- that's the inclusivity that really turned me off. I had been playing 40K since it was called "Rogue Trader" and had a collection of early stuff plus figures and vehicles that had been kitbashed. See, early on Citadel/aka GW, didn't produce vehicles so they encouraged players to make their own with articles in White Dwarf. Then at some point I went to a convention tournament and was told only "official" figures were allowed and none of my older figures or any kitbashed stuff -- not even figures kitbashed using GW figures and bits -- were allowed to be used. If I wanted to participate I'd have to buy all new stuff.

Since then my appetite for their games has waned…

gisbygeo06 Jun 2020 9:09 a.m. PST

I know GW games aren't for ME. (and I sort of resent the suggestion that they are)

Space Ghost06 Jun 2020 9:31 a.m. PST

I think the message has more to do with the neck beards, incels and wanna be Nazi's (I'm only joking with those names – there now you can't get offended) trying to act as gatekeepers to the hobby, because they think a game is somehow their sacrosanct playground. In other words, if you think it's funny to make jokes at the expense of someone's race, creed, gender or other physical or mental features, and that there is no harm in it so long as you call it "a joke" – especially if you like making said jokes in the presence of those you ridicule, then they're fine without your business, and the hobby is better off without you.

Oh, and SBMinisguy, nice that you shared a link to a boy who likes to harass female gamers online, associates with racists himself, complains he can't use the N-word more, and compares Jewish people to goblins. Nice. Think you just proved the point.

Personal logo SBminisguy Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 10:19 a.m. PST

Oh, and SBMinisguy, nice that you shared a link to a boy who likes to harass female gamers online, associates with racists himself, complains he can't use the N-word more, and compares Jewish people to goblins. Nice. Think you just proved the point.

LOL!, sure, whatever. I've been gaming a loooong time and have rarely encountered "the neck beards, incels and wanna be Nazi's (I'm only joking with those names there now you can't get offended) trying to act as gatekeepers to the hobby."

Who fruck can be a "gatekeeper" to a whole hobby?!?

If someone is acting like a !@?!@( then don't associate with them.

If you don't like how someone is treating you, speak up and/or find people who will treat you well. You'll soon find that all the ""the neck beards, incels and wanna be Nazi's" will be self contained in their own little toxic groups that nobody else wants to or has to interact with.

Just like the representation stuff -- do you not have imagination? Paint your figures however you like, make up whatever back story you want – it's *your* hobby experience to make of it as you will, and you can build whatever gamer community is best for you to experience.

And you shouldn't seek validation from a public company seeking to virtue signal to get some cash out of your pocket

Frankly, it doesn't speak well of you to violate Godwin's Law so quickly.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 10:35 a.m. PST

Editor in Chief Bill wrote:

So will there be gay Space Marines now?

I'm pretty sure there have always been gay Space Marines, just like there have always been gay lunberjacks, truck drivers, boxers, football players (both kinds of football), etc. They may be back in the closet in 38,000 years, but they'll still exist.

Legion 406 Jun 2020 11:44 a.m. PST

Didn't there used to be Rainbow Warriors SM unit ?


Regardless when it comes to war gaming … sexual orientation of the pieces on the board/table really is not a factor. Yes ?

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 12:13 p.m. PST

nice that you shared a link to a boy who likes to harass female gamers online,

I must have watched the wrong video.

Examples?

sexual orientation of the pieces on the board/table really is not a factor. Yes ?

Not any more than it does on the real battle field.

I've always been of the opinion that the more people – regardless of race, gender, orientation, and any of those other things about you in which I am no interested – willing to stand along side me for the cause, the better the odds that more of us come home.

Honor, courage, commitment (YW USN), ability, intelligence, savvy, discipline. Those things are more interesting to me than any of the other categories.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 12:20 p.m. PST

It's funny that they don't want to include the most marginalized group- poor people of all races. I grew up dirt poor and couldn't afford GW way back in the old days. I remember scrimping and saving and buying a box of skeleton sprues at the very first Gen Con they held in Milwaukee (84 I think?) for half off at a show special (GW was still at Gen Con back in those days). It cleaned me out but gave me a lot of great skeletons to enjoy. I paid $15 USD for them, probably.

Now I can afford GW but don't really buy much (I did just paint up a ridiculously expensive Gotrek figure they recently released- but I am a sucker for Gotrek).

Thankfully I am fortunate in that I have had many games between then and now with friends of all races, orientations and genders and never once had anyone disparage another gamer over any of these identities (and I wouldn't have tolerated it if they did). I've gamed all over the world so I think these raging racists are rarer than they would have you believe (play any online game in an open random session like Halo or Call of Duty to see overt racists- they will make your head spin). Like I said, I am fortunate, but I've always found tabletops to be very inclusionary.

That said, if you are a poor person, GW is not very inclusive for you. Perhaps GW should try less virtue signaling and start a line of lower priced figures that people who love to play but don't have the cash could afford. That would be a lot more inclusive. They can keep the high priced stuff just as it is- after all it sells just fine- but also make some figs that are lower priced to reach gamers with more interest than cash. It can even be a limited line if they are worried about canibalizing from their other lines.

Personal logo SBminisguy Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 1:57 p.m. PST

Thankfully I am fortunate in that I have had many games between then and now with friends of all races, orientations and genders and never once had anyone disparage another gamer over any of these identities (and I wouldn't have tolerated it if they did). I've gamed all over the world so I think these raging racists are rarer than they would have you believe (play any online game in an open random session like Halo or Call of Duty to see overt racists- they will make your head spin). Like I said, I am fortunate, but I've always found tabletops to be very inclusionary.

That's been my experience as well. Ironically the only incident I recall was in one group where one of the guys was openly gay, and another guy we all kinda suspected was gay but not "out" yet would make snide remarks -- eventually the group told him to get his act together, upon which he came "out" and was stunned when we were all, yeah, we knew…so…you gonna be nicer to [NAME] now, we're all cool with it…can we get back to the dungeon crawl now??

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2020 3:26 p.m. PST

TGerritsen wrote:

It's funny that they don't want to include the most marginalized group- poor people of all races.

At least we can be confident that many if not most of the Space Marines, Orks, Tau, Eldar, and other warfighters (to use the modern US military term) on our tables come from poor backgrounds and are happy to be sending most of their pay home to their families!

Dn Jackson06 Jun 2020 6:00 p.m. PST

It is the time of the New Cultural Revolution. We all must apologize for our sins, whether real or not.

khanscom06 Jun 2020 6:16 p.m. PST

"…That said, if you are a poor person, GW is not very inclusive for you. Perhaps GW should try less virtue signaling and start a line of lower priced figures that people who love to play but don't have the cash could afford…"

I've always embraced diversity in my Necromunda gangs by including lower- priced figures of equally high quality produced by other manufacturers.

newarch07 Jun 2020 2:16 a.m. PST

It's funny that they don't want to include the most marginalized group- poor people of all races. I grew up dirt poor and couldn't afford GW way back in the old days. I remember scrimping and saving and buying a box of skeleton sprues at the very first Gen Con they held in Milwaukee (84 I think?) for half off at a show special (GW was still at Gen Con back in those days). It cleaned me out but gave me a lot of great skeletons to enjoy. I paid $15.00 USD USD for them, probably.

Sorry but I think you were paying too much there. Neither plastic skeleton box set (the earliest of which was released in autumn 1986) retailed for as much as you state (30 dollars full retail). The smaller set was about 10 dollars in 1991, the larger set was around 23 dollars at the same time.

Back in the 90s I was paying about £2.99 GBP-3.99 for blister packs, about £20.00 GBP-30 for the boxed game sets like Space Marine and Mighty Empires and £12.00 GBP-15 for the Regiments of Renown boxed sets of 20-22 metal figures.

For reference a Sega Megadrive was £190.00 GBP at this time and games were anything between £20.00 GBP-45.

arthur181507 Jun 2020 2:40 a.m. PST

Bravo, khanscom! But, of course, 'including lower priced figures … by other manufacturers' is something GW has always discouraged and even, where practicable, forbidden.

newarch07 Jun 2020 3:34 a.m. PST

But, of course, 'including lower priced figures … by other manufacturers' is something GW has always discouraged and even, where practicable, forbidden.

They haven't always discouraged it, 80s White Dwarf often featured painted miniatures by Ral Partha, Grenadier and Asgard amongst others. This all finished quite abruptly around 1990.

My own Warhammer/fantasy selection includes figures by Citadel,Reaper,Grenadier,Footsore, Curteys, Crusader and Copplestone, amongst many others, ditto my 40k and Epic collections, which are dominated by later proxies and alternatives. I usually pick the figures I like best rather than worry about who makes them.

coopman07 Jun 2020 6:21 a.m. PST

They just want you to know that they are ready to take your money yet again.

Legion 407 Jun 2020 7:56 a.m. PST

Examples?
"sexual orientation of the pieces on the board/table really is not a factor. Yes ?"
Not any more than it does on the real battle field.

Of course … but fortunately we are talking about toys, pieces of card board, etc. No one dies for real.

I have almost all the GW Epic minis they produced since about '89.

Not really a fan of their 40K fluff and many of their epic rules sets. 4 or 5 since '89, IIRC.

Their models kept getting more & more over-the-top, weird, silly, etc. as time went one.

We "cherry-pick" from their Epic rules, models & fluff …

Of course 40K is not sci-fi but sci-fantasy, WHFB set in the far future. We prefer a little more hard sci-fi in our games, e.g. Hammer's Slammers/hard military Sci-fi.

There are a lot people out there that like GW's WHFB and 40K. But there are a lot that don't. I'm one of the latter. So I don't give them my $ anymore …

Plus most importantly to me, there are a lot more choices for, in my case, 6mm Sci-Fi models out there today. Than every before …

As I have been said so often, to anyone who will listen, etc., … "Who needs GW?" or "Bleeped text GW!" evil grin

Russ Lockwood18 Jun 2020 10:22 a.m. PST

We "cherry-pick" from their Epic rules, models & fluff …

Although we stick to 2nd Edition Epic, we allow any 6mm group of models in the game -- we just gin up some stats for them. GHQ microarmor, Battletech, scratchbuilt, bits and pieces from other games -- it's all allowable. As we play one-offs and not tournaments, we're not picky.

Haven't played Epic (well, anything) in a while…

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Jun 2020 2:57 p.m. PST

Actually, I like the fluff. I just don't like the game. So I will set up my own games that generally use the 40K background.

I also like their business decisions, since they tend to nerf old figures, so I can get them cheap. I am sure I actually have probably paid more than $1 USD each for a few space marines, but it was the rare outlier purchase. I even recently got a copy of the 5th edition rules for $2 USD, so I could be sure I really don't want to play them.

Keeping with the spirit of the OP, I will buy space marines for less than $1 USD each (and a commensurate scaled price point for the bigger stuff) from anyone, no matter what prejudice they have been subjected to in other activities.

Legion 422 Jun 2020 8:51 a.m. PST

Russ +1

As I said … There is a lot of good stuff out there today. And of course GW/FW does not do Epic anymore.

But again a lot of choices today. With both minis and rules …

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