"French flags 1808-1812" Topic

I have read in Terry Crowdy's Napoleon's Infantry Handbook that in 1808 the eagle (and presumably the flag?) were limited to the battalion where the colonel was present (for the light infantry even sooner, 1807). At the end of 1811 it was decreed that the other line battalions would carry the solid colour ensigns (I've also seen these called fanions). But in the interim, what did the other battalions carry to rally around etc.? Does anyone here know? Did they continue to carry the 1804 pattern, but perhaps without an eagle?
Just to be clear, this is the period from 1808-12 I'm referring to. Any help much appreciated.

Not exactly sure of dates but around those times each regiment had a single eagle & flag, carried by the 1st Bn. The others had only fanions.

This was the regulation situation but it is said in many sources that it was not universally adhered to.

Depends I guess. I was told by Graham of GMB flags that French battalions, of the regular regiments, carried eagles all the way to the end of 1811 in the Peninsula. In Germany or France that may not be the case?

Since I do the Peninsula only, my French "Eagle for everybody" ends when Marmont takes charge and Massena takes leave. I have no evidence that this is accurate, but it's my assumption that at Busaco and Fuentes all battalions had eagles?

If I was you, I would keep Eagles until Russia 1812/Salamanca then change to the Eagle/fannion setup..then there is the flag change as well. Tricolor 1812 flag = 1 eagle + fanions?

In the 1812 campaign only one eagle per regiment was carried, light infantry did not carry one, also the Guard, only 8 egales were carried into Russian – like one for the grenadiers, one for the Chasseurs, the Young Guard did not carry eagles.

In Spain, I forgot at what date, only one eagle per brigade was carried.

The rest of the units carried – flags – some of them were captured – like 2e de ligne.

There is a good article in Tradition Nr. 152 by Vincent Bourgeot about this including illustrations.

There is a lot of discussion about those flags of 2e de ligne, the existing original in a museum in Moscow doesn't conform with the usual pictures supposedly drawn from it.

In short there is a lot of leeway how you would like to have those flags, plain, in different designs on blue and red – or blue white and red and other designs, not a lot available sources at all.

Yes, I'm gaming the Peninsular War as well, mostly between 1808-12, which is why the question. I love the idea of the fanions, but I'm pretty certain that would be 1812 or later. So maybe I will stick with the Eagles as Mike suggests, as Soult and the gang seemed to have pretty well done things as they pleased in Spain!

Charrie, Drapeaux et Etandards, is the authority on this. He says that although Fanions were discussed in 1809 none were actually used until the late 1811/early 1812 decrees and no official fanions were available in 1812. He also believes none went to Spain, but allows that the colonels could have their own made. He also details when the eagles of the other battalions were returned to depot and different regiments did different things. The non regulation fanions are depicted in the Russian campaign book by Blandford. I discuss this in my forthcoming book Wellington at Bay. YouTube link

Garry Wills

You might find this information of John Cook, form TMP 2006 interesting

I have had a close look at this issue and there is a mention of Old Guard fanions, so I offer this which is about all I have on the subject.
Napoleon wrote to Berthier on 11 March 1812:
"It is necessary that the Guard carries its flags (drapeaux). The chasseur arm will have only one eagle, the grenadier arm will have one one eagle always carried to the 1st regiment of Old Guard of each arm. The Grenadiers à Cheval will have only one eagle, the Chevau légers will not have an eagle. Give the order to the colonels to provide the fanions which each battalion must have. The voltigeurs will have red fanions and the tirailleurs white fanions. These fanions will not bear anything which indicates to which regiment they belong, nor that it belongs to the Guard."
This letter is ambiguous and talks about flags (drapeaux) and eagles, and fanions for Young Guard regiments. It appears that the Young Guard infantry have no flags or fanions of any description at this stage, as it is ordered that they be provided, and that the Old Guard are to carry their drapeaux as well as their eagles. The Chasseurs à Cheval are not mentioned.
The eagles were with the 1 battalion/squadron of the respective regiments. The others may have been left in regimental depots in 1812 or possibly remained in the Tuileries where the Guard eagles were normally kept. The records of Young Guard regiments certainly mention a port-drapeau but as these regiments received neither eagles nor drapeau, they probably allude to fanions.
As far as Guard fanions are concerned, in theory they were supposed to be tricolors for the old guard, blue for the fusiliers, white for the tirailleurs, red for the voltigeurs and yellow for the flanquers. However, very few of these fanions are left and a surviving fanion (56cm x 65cm) belonging to the 5th Tirailleur-Grenadiers is red and bears the regimental identity. Similarly, a surviving fanion (67cm x 66cm) taken at Krasnoi in 1812 and attributed to 1er Voltigeurs is crimson whilst one (100cm x 90cm) taken at Kulm in 1813 belonging to 13e Voltigeurs is white. So, it would appear that there were variations on the theme and only generalisations are possible as far as appearance of fanions of other regiments is concerned.
I do not know of any surviving Old Guard infantry fanions.
On 25 December 1811, Napoleon decreed that the fanions for line battalions would be 80cm x 100cm and of different colours for each battalion, white, red, blue, green and yellow through 2nd to 6th battalions. In response to a question about fanions for squadrons of line cavalry regiments, Napoleon replied on 31 January 1812 that they were to carry nothing. The line infantry fanions were to be plain, without fringes, ornamentation or cravats but surviving examples, which might pre-date the decree regulating fanions, show that several line regiments had a number of fanion designs unique to themselves.
Turning to whether a battalion must have some kind of 'flag' or not, for whatever reason, it seems that a 'flag' was not essential and Prussian fusilier battalions are but one example.
JC
his is difficult and requires a degree of extrapolation.
The decree of February 1808 reducing the eagles to one per battalion also stated that each service battalion (bataillon de geurre) would have an ensign (enseigne). When the discussion of the design of these ensigns started in March 1808, the size was proposed at "4 pied carré" – 128cm square. By June 1808 this was reduced by a third in a report to Napoleon, who then wrote to Berthier in April 1809, "I approve that all corps return the their eagles to France except one which they will keep. While waiting for the ensigns (enseignes), you will authorize them to make a very simple ensign without devices and reduced to a third of those formerly. These ensigns are for the purpose of rallying. They will not have any bronze decoration, they will carry only the number of the regiment and the battalion.
A point to note that this is not just in the context of line infantry regiments but all infantry corps that were subject to the reduction of eagles. Furthermore, the final decision on fanions was not resolved until 1811 and it is supposed that certain regiments which had returned their surplus eagles in 1809 took the initiative to make some fanions of their own design, which probably accounts for the non-standard ones, such as of 37th, 8th and 2nd line and 7th light.
The final design of the fanions was not set until February 1812 and were 80cm x 100cm on a blackened 300cm wooden staff surmounted by a 10cm iron lance point finial. Note that this size is about the same as the 1804 and 1812
drapeaux which were 80cm x 80cm.
Clearly, judging by surviving examples, the Guard did not conform entirely either in colour or size to this scheme, or even its own scheme and in this context Pierre Charrié merely mentions the scheme for Guard in his book as something the Guard subordinate battalions should have carried "en principe" from 1812.
There are no Old Guard fanions left, as far as I know, so other than that they were tricolors – in theory – any
description must be conjectural but one can assume that they would be similar in size to the fanions we know about, on simple blackened staff and finished with a simple spear point.
Sorry I can't be more help but a definitive answer is just not possible.
JC

About the flag in the Blandford book – this is leading to controversy with the existing one in Moscow.

there is also this article which I recommend to read and which is discussing the fanion, flag of 2e de ligne in great detail and context

Les fanions du 2e régiment d'infanterie de ligne en 1812
Flags of the 2nd Infantry Regiment of the line in 1812
Dimitri Gorchkoff

It should be available on line somewhere

I tend to use flags, officers, drummers etc as battalion indicators.

1st battalion gets an eagle; 2nd gets an officer and a drummer; 3rd battalion gets a drummer; 4th battalion gets nothing.

von Winderfelt,

Thanks for that information. That back dates the instruction for the ensigns to 1808, but with no real evidence that the design was formalized until 1812. So perhaps some creative licence is called for here, based on non-standard fanions during those years, with regiment and battalion number. I will see what I can find in that regard. And on a blackened staff with spear point…

For a good illustrative record, you should look no further than
'French Infantry Flags (From 1796 to the End of the First Empire) by Ludovic Letrun

link

As of interest, there was this record of a fanion captured at Waterloo:

None of my guys leave the barracks without colors, including light cavalry. Started this 40 years ago and gave all my French an eagle. What did I know? So whether is an 1804 or 1812 Colour, an eagle gets set on top of the GMB flag.

@dibble: I see that the flag illustrated was captured by the 28th, and that the staff is surmounted not by an Eagle but by a spherical finial (if you can have a finial which is round?). Nevertheless, the 45th Ligne is the Regiment from which Sergeant Ewart took the Eagle at some point during the Union Brigade's engagement with parts of d'Erlon's Corps. Any further details of where, and at what time of day, the flag illustrated was taken?

Presumably the battalion number was on the other side?

It's obviously not the Regimental eagle/flag. Presumably, it was taken/found after the attack by D'Erlon. There is no real information as is with other minor flags and banners that were captured over the years. Only the important captured regimental flags have been documented. Just a cursory look in the great hall at Chelsea Hospital and what is held by the National Army Museum and other county Regimental museums up and down Britain, will show that vast array that were captured but many are not documented with any history behind them

As the battalion fanions were designed and intended as marker flags that is probably the reason. All they were supposed to do was show where the battalions were, nothing more, nothing less.

The battalion would be indicated by the color of the fanion. They were not supposed to be decorated with any symbols, other colors, or numbers, though the troops and the battalion commanders, as usual, disregarded instruction/regulations.

It's an attractive flag (Battalion number on reverse does seem likely, perhaps in form, eg, "2e Bon"?). I had guessed that the prosaic reality might be exactly as stated, but to tell the truth I'd hoped that the flag had been taken later in the day, from some remnants of the 45e Regt who had rallied to support the final attacks of La Garde…
Thanks for responses to this tangent. Good Luck.

A bit of historical context might be helpful, here.

The original issue of eagles, with the 1804 flags, gave one eagle to each infantry battalion and one to each cavalry squadron. At the time, infantry regiments consisted of two battalions of nine companies each.

In 1808 the infantry organization changed to three battalions of six companies each. Note that a regiment still had a total of 18 companies, but they were arranged into three battalions for greater flexibility in the field. Also, there was an additional company each of grenadiers and voltigeurs.

So Napoleon had a decision to make, here. Either allow only the first two battalions to carry their original eagles, issue new eagles to the new battalions, or eliminate the second battalion eagle and take the first battalion eagle from the first battalion and give it to the regimental HQ, which is what he did. He also withdrew all the cavalry eagles except one each for the heavy regiments.

It turned out to be quite impractical for each cavalry squadron to perform its assigned duties and also worry about defending an eagle – especially the light regiments and dragoons who were often on scouting and screening duties. And the last thing Napoleon wanted was for enemy armies to accumulate captured French eagles. This philosophy translated to the Line Infantry Regiments. No new eagles were cast and issued to the third battalions, and the second battalion eagles were returned to the depots.

Spain is another story. Many regiments were already in country when the order came down, and returning the eagles to their French depots was more of a danger than just keeping them. So I would assume that in Spain the first two battalions mostly kept both their eagles, and the third battalions either made up some fanion as a rally point, or did without. I cannot speak for the cavalry regiments in Spain.

So only the heavy cavalry was to carry its single eagle into the field, again being now part of Regimental HQ rather than the first squadron, and Line Infantry did the same with what had been its first battalion eagle. Light regiments, both horse and foot, were to leave their eagles at the depot. Many Light Infantry regiments disobeyed this order, but there is good reason to believe that light cavalry and dragoon regiments obeyed for the most part.

Thanks for this Context; brings together a number of things I had known about "separately", and shows the logical connections among them.

>>A bit of historical context might be helpful, here.

And further clarity as it isn't quite complete.
Regiments were formerly demi-brigades till 1803- so they already had notionally and practically in most cases 3 battalion, not two. Yes there were some with only 2 bns and perhaps more already had 4 by 1805.

During the 'invasion planning' of ANX -ANXII, some regiments were increased from 3 to 4 battalions. The primary distribution of Eagles occurred 5 December 1804- 290 alone to the 'regiments de ligne' battalions*.
Every formed mainland regiment received Eagles and Standards to the number required, if not at the distribution proper, then after that.

I don't see the number of companies or the reorganisation within battalions being at all relevant to the matter. Less so than the losses incurred of the precious emblems in the short campaigns up up 1807 when the pause created made the reorganisation necessary.

After all in the 1805 campaign alone the 5th, 4th and later 24th Legere all lost Eagles in full battles, not skirmishes.

Some eagles lost were replaced in due course, and the newer 'lightened' model also introduced with the 1811 changes. The order to return these emblems to depots was as complied with as new dress regulations. Everything in its time.

That many were carried throughout the 1809 campaign is relevant. The bland statement made that "the eagle was found where the Colonel was" is at best imprecise.

The wording of the decree was actually 'where the bulk of the corps was to be found'. Not exactly the same thing unless it was cited as a later clarification.

And the Guard were allowed to carry two Eagles per regiment in each arm in 1812.
*P Charrié.
regards davew

@Robert le Diable "but to tell the truth I'd hoped that the flag had been taken later in the day, from some remnants of the 45e Regt who had rallied to support the final attacks of La Garde…"

Apologies at hijacking this thread a little.

Bearing in mind the catastophic collapse and rout of the majority of the Armee du Nord at Waterloo, it does seem strange that we wouldn't hear of more eagles/fanions being taken. I stand to be corrected, but whilst I read of eagles being concealed, saved or rallied around I cannot recall a single instance of the Allied Army taking any in this period.

This could be explained by:

1. Attempts to rally failing, leading to concealment rather than display.

2. It was dark

3. The general exhaustion of the victorious troops. Mounted troops would be more likely to attempt it though.

Coaches, hats, Generals certainly but all mention of the taking of fanions, drapeaux or aigle seem to pertain to the earlier phases.

In the rout and confusion some units would likely have no idea what had happened to them. Take the experience of Chef de Batallion Rulliere of the 95eme Ligne (from Andrew W Field's new book, "The French at Waterloo, Eyewitness Accounts" pages 137-8

"An English officer and dragoon threw themselves at our eagle to capture it, seriously wounding the Porte-Aigle. I only just had the time to snatch the eagle from his hands and to throw myself into the sunken lane following Marshal Ney.."

"The battalion had at Laon about 200 men. the regiment 400. The regiment thought it had lost it's eagle. but when the Chef de Batallion rejoined them, and presented the eagle to them, there were shouts of indescribable joy; they thought he had been killed in the evening of the 18th and that the enemy had captured the eagle."

His letter to Charras that this comes from is available in the original french in Largeaud, "Napoleon et Waterloo: la Defaite glorieuse de 1815 a nos jours" (Paris 2006) pages 374-7