"T-34/85 deception" Topic

OK I admit I've run across some weird stuff in the past but this is a new one. According to a posting I found on tank.net

link

When compared to T-34, IS-2 had a better gun and protection. Panther and Tigers could be dealt from 1200-1400 meters. They had to get to 500 meters or fire at the sides. German tanks avoided areas defended by IS-2. Some T-34 crews would install buckets in the barrel to resemble IS-2, and force the Germans to retreat… this is similar to Kelly's heroes!

I did a quick Google search on this and could not find anything else on it. Based on my observations with a variable power scope on a hilltop this looks like this could occur in less than ideal conditions over 1000m.

Does anyone have any additional info?

Wolfhag

Are we sure this isn't a Kelly's Heroes referenced joke..

One effect would be German gunners claiming they knocked out JS2s.

While I have no sources to point to, I would not be too surprised if such stories were true … from one side's viewpoint.

That is, it would not surprise me too much if some T-34 crew (or crews) did this, and then attributed almost any random behavior by Germans to their clever clever ruse.

But I would be very skeptical of whether the Germans actually did notice, much less take any decision to make a tactical withdrawal, because of it. It is possible, but I would be highly skeptical.

Confirmation bias is a powerful contaminant of any first-hand account. We want to see some factor having an effect, and we are drawn to conclude that any behavior we see can be attributed to that factor. It's basic to human nature -- we're trying to figure things out in this world and we infer causal links all the time, whether events are or are not actually related.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

!@#$% buggy software….

I think Mobius has it right.

How well did the deceptive paint job work on Sherman 76 gun barrels?

Did Panzer IV's with the skirt armor around the turret make it look somewhat like a Tiger I?

Sometimes all you need to do is cause the enemy to freeze for a few seconds to gain an advantage. That's supposedly what happened in that Panther and Pershing engagement in Cologne. The Panther commander never saw a Pershing and he thought it was a new German tank with a different paint job. He could have easily gotten off the first shot but didn't.

Wolfhag

It also didn't help that the Panther was broadside on to the Pershing. At that range even an Easy Eight could have taken out the Panther with a side shot. Perhaps even a regular M4.

Cheers!

Yes but the Panther commander would most likely have recognized an Easy 8 or M4, an hour before he knocked out two M4's so that's what he was expecting. He didn't know about Pershings.

I've been reading his AAR of the engagement. The Panther commander's intuition had him traverse the turret towards the intersection the Pershing was moving. The Pershing knew the Panther was there because some infantryman had spotted it for him and a bazooka team was stalking it. The Pershing driver panicked too. He was supposed to pull out just far enough into the intersection for the gunner to shoot. When he saw the Panther with its gun pointed at him he hit the gas and the gunner had to fire on the move.

I was in Cologne last year and walked and took pictures of the area where the engagement was.

This type of situation is why I have built into my rules an Engagement/Suppression Delay to act based on the level of Situational Awareness and crew training/experience. It's not a function of activating a unit. Seconds count in a 1:1 engagement.

Wolfhag

I was thinking about the lines from Kelly's Heroes too !

I think "german tanks avoided areas **defended** by IS2" is somewhat hard to fathom.

Most German efforts by that time would have been at best counter-attacks and the Russian tanks too were mostly also on the attack. My guess is all or most German tactical efforts by this time were to avoid any sort frontal engagement of Russian tanks of any sort and look for the softer targets or gaps toward the flank. IS2 numbers being so small, were probably not even being any greater awareness or greater concern for the average German platoon leader. Probably Germans were by now offering mostly Fabian tactics looking for preservation of their forces and a chance to ambush Russian attacks at another time, shoot up the advancing column, then quickly retreating, the tactic of the increasingly more common Jagdpanzers of various sorts.

I am always reminded about how soldiers in the West always thought every incoming round of artillery was an "88" and how some soldiers spent the whole campaign in combat and might never even see a German tank. Germans might have had the same situation with the IS2.

I have a feeling that such deception (if ever actually committed) would be most useful as part of a maskirovka operation on a sector where the Soviets were not actually going to attack, but wanted the Germans to think they would. Drive a platoon of the bucket tanks around somewhere close to the front lines, where they might be spotted at a distance and mis-recognised by German patrols (in case they would actually know of IS-2 in the first place…), making the German intelligence to think that a major attack is to take place since such breakthrough tanks have been brought to the sector. Then on the next day remove the buckets and drive around, so that the Jerries can also spot some T-34's.

IS-2 regiments were certainly not intended for defending sectors, as pointed out above – they were intended to help force a breakthrough that other units could then exploit and consolidate.

Once actual shooting starts, I am wondering how long the bucket would remain around due to the muzzle pressure.

For miniature wargamers, it should be easy to convert a platoon of tanks into bucket-model to test how your opponent reacts to them – or if he can even spot them. Should not be too difficult conversion, and if you are careful you might be even able to make them easily removable in case you get bored of them.

misidentifying a fig at a distance has been my bane more than once. It is getting even easier as my vision starts to diminish.

For miniature wargamers, it should be easy to convert a platoon of tanks into bucket-model to test how your opponent reacts to them -- or if he can even spot them.

In a 28mm SYW wargame I was in, one player thought the Prussian player's mediocre fusiliers were elite grenadiers because of the front mitre-cap plate!

Speaking of not recognizing an enemy tank there is a book by a commander of Soviet Sherman. One cold snowy night they drove their Sherman right up to a German road block which included a German tank. The Germans assumed they were Germans in a new style tank but the Soviets popped out of the tank and took them all prisoner.

The Panther commander never saw a Pershing and he thought it was a new German tank with a different paint job.

The Germans assumed they were Germans in a new style tank but the Soviets popped out of the tank and took them all prisoner.

I never thought about this aspect, but considering how many different types of tanks the Germans cranked out during the war (plus all of the beutepanzer), this should not really have been a surprise.

It would take quite some time until info about new tank types would reach front line units. Desire for secrecy before the tanks would go into action does not really help things, either.

I would think at 1000 m, even with optics, it would be much easier to see the general outline of the vehicle rather than the shape of the barrel. Not sure I'd put much stock in this.