Help support TMP


"And the Wargamer Who Most Influenced You is..." Topic


53 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the History of Wargaming Message Board

Back to the Wargaming in General Message Board


Areas of Interest

General

Featured Hobby News Article


Current Poll


1,337 hits since 14 May 2020
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian14 May 2020 9:51 p.m. PST

You were asked – TMP link

Which well-known miniature wargamer most influenced you?

10% said Gary Gygax
5% (TIE) said Charles Grant Sr. or Phil Barker

Memento Mori14 May 2020 9:57 p.m. PST

If I saw the poll i would have answered Donald Featherstone
I still use his rules almost 50 years later

Bellbottom Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 2:08 a.m. PST

I'd second Donald Featherstone, although it was H.G. Wells that got me started.

parrskool Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 3:30 a.m. PST

I'd "third" Donald Featherstone and maybe Charles Grant

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 3:34 a.m. PST

Gygax as a major influence on miniature wargaming? Sad.

Nick Bowler15 May 2020 4:11 a.m. PST

I will go with Featherstone and Grant. But I have to also say my friend Jim -- when I was 15 I (and some other board wargamers) were invited over to Jim's house. Jim was, I think, 25 then -- way older than any of us. And he had a room, full of figures, and devoted to games. He destroyed us that day -- it was an English Civil War battle and us young pups tried to do a double envelopment with our troops way too spread out, allowing defeat in detail. But on that day one of my life goals was to have a game room and collection like Jim had. Many decades later Jim and I still play, and my collection is getting close to his in size -- but always a little behind!

Tom Molon Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 4:41 a.m. PST

Featherstone, Grant Sr. Still refer to their books, 50 years later.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 6:25 a.m. PST

To be honest it was many years into my wargaming life that I realised Gary Gygax was a wargamer. His influence on my wargaming over the last 45+ years has been just about nil (I'd say it was deciding to buy a copy of "Don't Give Up The Ship" a couple of years ago). if it was anyone it would be my brother for getting me started in WW2 and Napoleonics with his extensive collections, then Don Feathersone for his books that I had almost on permanent load from the local library when I was a youngster. If not him then Terry Wise (his excellent ACW rules)

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 6:30 a.m. PST

"Sad?" I find that remark pathetic.

mildbill15 May 2020 6:40 a.m. PST

This hobby has a short memory. Five to seven years for figure lines and less for people. I have seen Duke Siefried ignored at conventions. If you haven't done anything noteworthy in the last two years, you don't exist to most wargamers.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 7:20 a.m. PST

Sad? Gygax was one of America's pioneers of wargaming.

Slow Oats15 May 2020 7:30 a.m. PST

My cousin got me into Heroscape back before that was killed off, which led me to later on buy Song of Blades and Heroes by Andrea Sfigoli, my now favorite game ever. So they probably had the most influence on me.

Come to think of it, I don't know how well known Sfigoli is himself. But SoBH seems pretty popular, so I'll stand by it.

Don't see why Gygax is a "sad" answer.

Redcurrant15 May 2020 7:46 a.m. PST

Gary Gygax – sorry had to Google him to find out who he was – has had absolutely no influence in my wargaming.

Donald Featherstone and Charles Grant would be my choices.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 8:03 a.m. PST

Another vote for Donald Featherstone followed by Charles Grant

Dynaman878915 May 2020 8:06 a.m. PST

John Hill – though not for his miniatures games but Squad Leader was my first true wargame and it was the best way into the hobby.

nnascati Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 8:34 a.m. PST

Gary Gygax
Walter Dieroff (Tom Thumb Hobbies), Philadelphia
Ed Miller, Glendora, NJ

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 8:48 a.m. PST

This is for me, personally, not for the community at large. Fred Vietmeyer, author of Column Line and Square, introduced me to organized gaming, that is to say playing with rules with a group. I played CLS almost exclusively for 10 years. Collected 25,000 figures and met dozens of great gamers, including one I have now known for 50 years. Secondly it would be Larry Brom whose The Sword and the Flame took me on another long and expensive voyage into the colonial realm of gaming. Lastly Phil Barker whose DBA was the center of my gaming, collecting, and socializing 1991 to the present.

By the way, Jack Scruby did more to initially foster the hobby of wargaming than anyone as the first maker of war-game figures, publishing the first wargame magazine, and author of numerous rules. He got alerted me to the possibility of organized gaming, linking me to Fred and providing initial figures for games.

Strange that in my 50 years of gaming, including attending national conventions since the first Historicon and reading every book on the subject, taking just about all the hobby magazines, and corresponding with many other gamers, I have never noticed any one playing Featherstone or Grant authored rules. Yes, very interesting and fun to read books but not really a strong basis for playing games. No question that Wargamers Newsletter held the hobby together for many years, putting Don in the top contributors to wargaming.

It has been my pleasure to have met in person all the people I mention, except Charles Grant, and I found them all to be the greatest of people you would like to meet.

p.s. regarding Gary Gygax, recall the question is who is a personal influence. If you never heard of him then hardly such, and if he is a personal influence, how is that sad. He pioneered a new idea in miniatures gaming (besides writing medieval rules, Chainmail) and that attracted many people into the gaming life, many then turned to historical miniatures. He created a whole new facet of miniatures that kept many companies afloat in hard times.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 9:45 a.m. PST

Greatest influence – difficult to say since it
depends upon what 'influence' means.

Most all have had some impact (Don, Grant, Gary G.,
Jack et al) but MOST influential is a sort of tie.

Larry Brom and Lou Zocchi. Before I met Larry, I'd
seen Lou's name in a gaming mag (IIRC TAHGC's 'General')
and sent to him a post card asking if he could point
me to info for gaming the ACW, anticipating a one-page
reply with a few books, maybe a figure source.

What I got back was a many page letter with a complete
simple set of rules, painting and basing info (with
diagrams) for Airfix ACW figures, a list of ref books
and battle accounts and the names of Jack Scruby and
Larry Brom, who Lou knew from Jack's Table Top Talk
magazine, with postal addresses (Larry lived about an
hour's drive from me).

I thanked Lou in reply and asked what I owed him for
his effort. His response was really simple – 'Pass it
on when and how you can if you're asked.'

Which I've been trying to do for a long time now.

Larry's influence was even simpler, but farther
reaching. At a very early gathering of North Carolina
gamers someone had organized an ACW game. I was in
the game running some CSA artillery and making a hash
of it. The GM and I had some conversations.

Post game Larry caught up with me and said 'You've
been at this a year or so. Remember, we are not
historians studying famous people or world events.
Basically, we're engaging in a social event for
fun and relaxation – that we might learn a bit about
a subject or person is a positive byproduct. Never
should we lose sight of the objective – socializing
in a relaxing atmosphere with like-minded companions.'

We had some great times together and I've always tried
to take his approach – don't like something, discuss
agree and change – but always with good humor and
respect for other opinions.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 9:51 a.m. PST

Hey! If someone asked me about the most influential person in role-playing games, not only would Gygax get my vote, he'd be so far in the lead I'm not sure second place would be pertinent.

But RPGs are not miniature wargames. They don't need miniatures--though many groups find them convenient--and they aren't necessarily wargames of any sort. I've spent good RPG sessions without rolling to hit. And while Gygax himself was a miniature wargamer, he seems to have left no footprint as such. Which is why I try to avoid referring to "the hobby." The people on TMP who announce that we need to "grow the hobby" by getting rid of painted miniature or the whole win/lose business aren't talking about miniature warfare: we have no common hobby to discuss.

But in this case, the poll actually said "miniature wargamer." If the poll asks for "Favorite Ford Car" and the winner is "Corvair" a little head-shaking is called for.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 10:13 a.m. PST

Robert, your car analogy is false. The guy published "Chainmail" and "Tractics" (both of which still get mentioned on TMP), and he started Gen Con as the Lake Geneva Wargames Convention back in 1968, and it is still going on today. You don't consider that to be a footprint?
To dismiss him as only an RPG guy is disingenuous.

Eumelus Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 11:49 a.m. PST

For me it would be some of the greats of Potomac Wargamers – Wally Simon, Lee Tucker, Paul Koch.

Mollinary15 May 2020 11:52 a.m. PST

Without doubt Donald Featherstone. If I hadn't stumbled on his books then I would never have made the leap from ‘playing with toy soldiers' to ‘wargaming'. I used his Rules for a few years and then graduated to more complex (but not necessarily more fun) Rules. He inspired what has been my lifetime hobby, and I am eternally grateful.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 11:59 a.m. PST

I deny disingenuous 79th PA, but I might concede "pigheaded." He didn't write Tractics. If publishing qualifies, top of the list should be Stanley Paul, who printed almost all of Featherstone. I bought my copy of Chainmail new in a shop and was deeply unimpressed. You'll notice it only get "mentioned" in a D&D context. D&D WAS impressive--I began playing in the three saddle-stitched book era--but, as I said, not a miniature wargame.

As for Gencon, the most recent Danacon was two or three years ago in Bristol Indiana. There were about 30 of us. From what I'm hearing from historical miniatures players who do missionary work at Gencon, we might have had nearly as many games and players. Gencon's a great event for role-players, computer gamers, card gamers, LARPing and board games, and I understand a nice place to buy stuff related to various movies. But miniature warfare is a rounding error, and historical miniature warfare scarcely even that. I've got nothing against them. I've got nothing against SCAfolk, reenactors or the guys who fly remote-controlled aircraft, either. I just don't think they're miniature warfare.

Eumelus Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 12:35 p.m. PST

Robert, your information re historical miniatures at Gencon is inaccurate. I've attended the last four and each year there were dozens of historical miniatures games, with players far in excess of your 30-fold Danacon. Now in a sense it is true that historical miniatures at Gencon is a "rounding error", but that's simply due to the sheer size of the con itself (65k gamers in attendance). Had the d__d virus not struck, I was going to be running a "Second Day at Gettysburg" scenario in 28mm three times this year.

forrester15 May 2020 1:32 p.m. PST

Given that I started this madness in the 70's, the names that were always coming up as writers of books and articles were Donald Featherstone and Charles Grant.
The former's skirmish rule book was very well used.
Apart from that I don't think I've necessarily used any of their rules but they were an all pervading influence.

Also a mention for Peter Gilder who was always nudging us onwards and upwards as to painting and modelling quality.

And the prolific WRG authors of rules and supplemental material.

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 2:02 p.m. PST

Robert P usually you are right on with your comments. What happened here? You do not answer the question, "Which well-known miniature wargamer most influenced _you_ ?" All you have done is say that it is sad the Gary Gygax had an influence on some other gamers.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 3:17 p.m. PST

I'll take your word, Eumelus. But "dozens" of historical miniatures games make it a small to medium historical miniatures convention. 79PA brought it up--I did not--as part of an argument that Gygax was a serious influence on miniature wargaming. I don't think you can make that case. An immense influence on RPGs, certainly: more important to RPGs than Wells is to miniature warfare. But not himself a factor on the miniature warfare side.

And thank you, Bobgnar. "Usually right" is something, at least. And I could just be being pig-headed here. Heaven knows it would not be the first time. But I was saddened because I thought anyone who regarded Gygax as an influence on miniature wargaming had lost track of what miniature wargaming was, like the ones who speak of "the hobby" and propose destroying miniature warfare to "grow" whatever that hobby may be.

Words matter. And the right use of words matters.

JimDuncanUK15 May 2020 4:03 p.m. PST

Featherstone and Grant just have to be there for obvious reasons. Also George Jeffreys as he was the reason I took an interest in running a wargames club where I spent 40 years encouraging the hobby.

If I only looked at this year it would have to be Peter Gilder.

Perris070715 May 2020 4:22 p.m. PST

Featherstone. Period.

PK Guy Brent15 May 2020 4:53 p.m. PST

Featherstone. One of his books was the start of my hobby.

Personal logo gamertom Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 8:21 p.m. PST

So I'm throwing out a name I haven't seen yet: Charlie Wesencraft. His book, Practical Wargaming, was the first one I read where playing one of the games seemed feasible. Figures could be mounted in multiples on stands and not put in place individually where one falling over often created a domino falling effect. Charts could be used to cross index number of figures versus die roll results rather than rolling so many dice per so-and-so many figures to see how many enemy figures could be removed. Namely his book made wargames seem "practical" and easy to play. I must of checked that book out of the library at least 8 times. His rules set what I came to expect of well written and developed rule sets (at least until The Complete Brigadier was issued; that set a new standard in clarity and ease of use that many current rules fail to meet).

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 9:29 p.m. PST

Featherstone and Scruby. One sold books on historical war gaming and the other sold the miniatures.

Don Lowry for his store and conventions in Maine.

Twilight Samurai Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2020 10:29 p.m. PST

I made my choice based on what led me to move from playing with toy soldiers to skirmishing with toy soldiers.

picture

Perhaps not what was intended, but fun nevertheless.

Green Tiger16 May 2020 1:29 a.m. PST

Peter Gilder, Terry Wise & Stuart Asquith!… Oh and Peter Young!

JimDuncanUK16 May 2020 5:44 a.m. PST

@gamertom

I thought of Charlie Wesencraft too but since I only have one of his books compared to the many of Featherstone and Grant I thought not.

I think Charlie is still on the go. I saw him at a Northern England show last year or maybe the year before.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2020 6:28 a.m. PST

A perfectly defensible choice, Twilight--if he brought you to miniature wargaming. And I need to apologize to anyone whose reasoning was similar. I look at Gygax, and all I see is the stampede AWAY from wargaming into RPGs. So I looked at the votes, and thought "wonderful: now we have people who don't even know what a miniature wargame is."

Gamertom, I'm working on Wessencraft's Corps Level Rules for the fall gaming season. I can't call him a major influence, because I came to him very late, but he has some excellent ideas.

14th NJ Vol Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2020 9:45 a.m. PST

Scotty Bowden and Rich Hasenauer

Jeffers16 May 2020 11:33 a.m. PST

Terry Wise.

custosarmorum Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2020 1:14 p.m. PST

I would have to say Peter Young was the most influential for me. His Charge! Or How to Play Wargames was the first real set of formal wargaming rules in played and he edited a book called The Wargame which had well-known gamers and/or historians discuss famous battles, each of which was illustrated with lovely figures and terrain and I would look at it almost daily as a teenager of thirteen or fourteen. I must thank my father, who every time we went to NYC took me to The Soldier Shop and bought something for me, including both of these books -- he was not a gamer but loved history and supported my interest in wargaming and history.

I would say though that Fred Vietmeyer, author of Column, Line and Square and Phil Barker of WRG fame were close seconds.

John Leahy16 May 2020 6:00 p.m. PST

The Wargame was my first real wargaming book I ever owned. I own 3 copies of it including my 1st which was picked up when it was initially released. I bought a copy for my oldest son. That book opened my eyes to what was out there. Aside from buying and painting Airfix figs my 1st visit to the Tin Soldier in Centerville was another great influence on me. Duke and Don Featherstone's book along with Gene McCoy and his wargame mag also were important.

Thanks,

John

Black Hat Miniatures17 May 2020 1:45 a.m. PST

For Me:

H G Wells

Little Wars was the book I started with as it was the only thing in the library and I spent 2 happy years from 12-14 firing cannon at plastic airfix figures and refighting Hook's Farm.

Charles Wesencraft – Practical Wargaming.

The first "proper" wargaming book I read and a huge influence on getting me into wargaming with dice on a table.

Mike

Personal logo gaiusrabirius Supporting Member of TMP17 May 2020 10:28 a.m. PST

Scott Mingus.

Sgt Slag17 May 2020 2:30 p.m. PST

robert piepenbrick, Gary Gygax built his D&D game upon the bones of his fantasy supplement, within Chainmail, which was a miniatures game authored by Gary. I've been working on building armies of various races built upon his size ratios, as detailed within his 1977 AD&D RPG Monster Manual book, his second RPG set of rules.

Gary had very specific size ratios for the various humanoid races. He also made use of various toy figures, for his fantasy armies and races. I believe he used some injection molded Cave Men toys (still available) for his Hill Giants (54mm tall figures); I also believe he used 60mm Viking figures for his Frost Giants (Cherilea?). I have calculated how tall these figures should be, if a Human figure is 25mm tall, and the aforementioned figures match up with the size ratios detailed in the Monster Manual.

It is known that Gary and friends, used different scales of miniatures, to model various races, within their fantasy miniatures war games: 20mm Humans work well for 1e AD&D Elves, being the proper size ratio for what Gary lists in his Monster Manual. Essentially, I am trying to get inside of Gary's head, using similar, if not the very same, models, which Gary and friends used. It is quite fascinating to see the races in their proper size ratios. Gary had an eye for detail, which is only apparent if you game with mini's in the proper size ratios.

Gygax was a mover, and a shaker, in the wargaming scene, during the late 1960's and the early 1970's, in the midwest. Gen Con, in Lake Geneva, during that period, was one of a very few game conventions being run, at that time! To say that he had little influence on the wargaming hobby does not agree with the history of the hobby.

Because of Gary Gygax's success with D&D, Games Workshop came into existence. It is also because of D&D, and the interest in fantasy gaming it generated, that GW's Warhammer games, became popular. Without Gary's influence, GW might never have come up with Warhammer. Whether you like D&D, or not, Gary's DNA is all over miniature wargaming, past, and present, though it has become diluted, over time.

Gary did not author my favorite set of fantasy war game rules, 2e BattleSystem, but that game is based on 2e AD&D RPG rules, which are very close to 1e AD&D rules, written by Gary. However, as I am building armies of various races, with the size ratios which Gary espoused in his Monster Manual for my BattleSystem games, his influence is built in, at the most basic level.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with your position. I believe history disagrees with your position, as well. Cheers!

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP29 Jun 2020 9:41 a.m. PST

Where'd the overall results of this poll go? Can't fond it at the moment.

Albus Malum28 Jul 2020 10:14 p.m. PST

Granted, that Miniature Wargaming existed before E.Gary Gygax, but I fail to understand the hatred against the man, who is responsible for Miniature Wargaming even existing in the year 2020, let alone the contributions to life as we know it today.

I started wargaming back in the mid 70's as a kid, and never heard of Barker, featherstone, Grant until a few years ago. But many here dont consider games like SPQR, Panzer Blitz, Kingmaker, etc. wargaming. But a few years later, in 1978 Gygax came along into my world and changed everything. As much as I wanted to as a kid, to play with miniatures, it just wasn't financially possible to play with miniatures, even if I could have found someone with them. Other than 1 time as a kid about 6 hears old, I had never, ever seen other people play with miniatures,( except with fantasy miniatuers) until…. (if you exclude fantasy wargaming) Never!!!

I am not a Warhammer Player, never actually played warhammer… price was out of my league.. but my friends did. but guess what? If No Gary Gygax, there would be no Games Workshop. No Games Workshop.. I dare say, this miniature forum TMP would not even exist, nor would 97 percent of the miniature market exist either. No GW… No Perry Miniatures. No GW no Game stores. they would only be comic book stores still. ( no MTG either(but most WARGAMERS HATE THAT ALSO))

As a matter of fact, Gary Gygax has changed your world more than any other wargamer PERIOD. Most video games people play, directly or indirectly owe their existance to E.Gary Gygax. Even the high end graphics card in your computer, was developed because of the market generated by computer gaming, all because of the game Dungeons and Dragons. Movies and tv shows you watch today, Game of Thrones, as a common example, exist because of GARY GYGAX.

Many people now are starting to buy 3d printers. guess what? the Miniature Game E. GARY GYGAX created is the driving force behind that also. There would be no consumer market for companies to produce this Miniature making machines, if it wasnt for the game created by Gygax. Seach Thingiverse, there is 100 fantasy related STL for every historical related STL avaiable, and that is being generous.

Funny thing though… the hatred towards people who bring great change… Gygax ( after the squabble with the Tolkien's, well he denied any connection with D&D being influenced by LOTR and the Hobbit books. Hmm… If Dnd had never came along, well probably those LOTR moves would never been made also.

Part of what most Wargamers and most DnD don't realise, the DMG is the WARGAME. probably the most complete wargame ever to be written up to that point. and still one of the best. Many people trying to play DnD have so much problems with the DMG because they think its RPG rules, but its not. It a almost totally complete Fantasy Wargame Campaign system, that also happens to include RPG.

Personal logo War Artisan Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Jul 2020 11:54 p.m. PST

You are overstating your case somewhat, Albus. It is always dangerous to project your own personal experience of wargaming onto the entire population of wargamers. The fact that you did not hear of the actual founders of the hobby until much later in your wargaming life does not mean that their contributions don't exist.

First, D&D was not a solo effort by Gygax, although he seemed to always want people to believe so. Significant contributions were made by others, not the least his one-time partner Dave Arneson (and I am speaking here as someone who can count Dave Arneson as one of his wargame buddies from the 1970s). Read Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World" to get a clearer picture of the origins of the D&D phenomenon.

Second, while he did contribute significantly to the rise of a new genre of wargaming, his efforts were built on the base of an existing hobby of miniature wargaming. It existed before Gygax, and would have continued to exist even without him, although in a different form. His biggest contribution, as you have pointed out, was tapping into a bigger potential market, but he did not invent wargames nor did he create the hobby out of whole cloth.

Albus Malum29 Jul 2020 9:53 p.m. PST

War Artison, You are correct, I did make one small error, when I said, "Miniature Wargaming even existing in the year 2020" I would not have completely gone away. But unless someone had else had come along, and change the world as we know it, like Gary Gygax did, then, Miniature Wargaming would hardly exist today… yes there would be a few historian types recreating long ago battle, but thats it.

You should read or watch the show made by James Burke.. Connections. And maybe you could understand. Gary Gygax is the man who made all the connections. and HE made it happen. I never said that it was a solo effort. But let face it, Dave Arneson did not make it happen, even though Gygax used some of his ideas. It was Gygax who did it.

But Gygax did not just change wargaming, HE CHANGED SOCIETY, and hence had influence on not only wargamers, but everyone in society.

So the question "Which well-known miniature wargamer most influenced you?" Even if you know absolutely nothing about wargaming, and even if you don't even know he did it. Gygax is the only one answer possible.

Outside of the wargaming community. GYGAX is the only name any random person is even likely to know. A random person off the street would never even possibly name Arneson, or Featherstone, and while they know H.G Wells, no average person is even remotely going to connect him to miniature wargaming, although they a few random people could tell you H.G Wells wrote "the Time Machine".

And, if you take the original question even further, "Which well-known miniature wargamer" there is only one well known wargamer, known to anybody outside of those who study the history of wargaming, and that is Gary Gygax, although many may not directly associate his RPG as as Wargame, if you even remotely look at the DMG it definiately IS a wargame.

Now back to Game Workshop- I bet most Warhammer players dont even know much about it, but if you look at Wiki:

"Founded in 1975 at 15 Bolingbroke Road, London by John Peake, Ian Livingstone, and Steve Jackson (not to be confused with U.S. game designer Steve Jackson), Games Workshop was originally a manufacturer of wooden boards for games including backgammon, mancala, nine men's morris, and Go.[3] It later became an importer of the U.S. role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, and then a publisher of wargames and role-playing games in its own right, expanding from a bedroom mail-order company in the process.[4]"

Hmm… they got their "start" importing and selling Gary Gygax's game… Hmmm….

Wiki:

"However, having successfully obtained official distribution rights to Dungeons & Dragons and other TSR products in the U.K., and maintaining a high profile by running games conventions, the business grew rapidly. It opened its first retail shop in April 1978.[9]"

Hmmm…


robert piepenbrink "But RPGs are not miniature wargames. They don't need miniatures--though many groups find them convenient--and they aren't necessarily wargames of any sort. I've spent good RPG sessions without rolling to hit."
Hmm… Chainmail…Swords & Spells..and then..the Greatest MINIATURE WARGAME BOOK THAT HAS EVER BEEN WRITTEN… the DUNGEON MASTER GUIDE…. If any of you "purist wargamers" had ever read the book, you would know it is not a RPG book, however it has that in it also… IT IS A COMPLETE SYSTEM FOR RUNNING A ON GOING WARGAMING CAMPAIGN,( ya.ya. I know there are about 3 pages missing to make the wargame complete, and a little contradiction in the iniative rules when calvary charges take place ) that includes among other thing some RPG.

I knew it as a kid, back in 1978 but i never quite grasped it, until a few years ago. the DMG is wargame campaign rules, and that is the reason SOOOOOOO many RPGers had problems with the book, they thought it was a book about RPGing, and could never grasp it. It is why GARY GYGAX was Correct in his lawsuit with Arneson. the DMG was NOT, I say NOT Arnesons game, although Gygax use some of his ideas in it. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was the logical conclusion of his Chainmail game, first published in 1971 with Jeff Perren. ( and maybe Gygax lifted that also, but GYGAX made it happen).


A couple years a go, a youtuber, Matt Coleville had a very successful KS, to the tune of 1.3 million. writing a book, covering the content of a couple pages of the old DMG… "Strongholds and Followers", which assumes your character will grow beyond just fighting monsters… and points towards the game Gygax wrote… THE WARGAME called ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. ITS A WARGAME FOR WARGAMING IN A CAMPAIGN WORLD!!!

But see… with Advance Dungeons and Dragons, you can have it all ( could even run a purely historical miniature wargame game using the rules).

But.. one thing happened.. in the late 70's teenagers, like myself, started buying the Books, we did not have lots of money, and could not afford to buy many miniatures, (some didnt buy any miniatures) but they could still play part of one of the games contained within the books, that partial game, was the RPG, and man, was it fun. True, it could have been funner if we could have done the whole thing, but for most, it wasnt a possibility. Did I say, the RPG was fun… more fun then the Wargame, which we weren't really able to play?

AND THE REST…. IS…. HISTORY!!!!! if you are only playing STALE, STATIC HISTORICALS, (NOT THAT THERES ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT), your missing out. There is always 2 versions of History, Who says your playing the right one, if not, and if your playing a wrong version of history, your playing a fantasy game, only your not smart enought to know your playing a fantasy game.

You see… its like Christopher Columbus, maybe John Cabot ( and the Vikings, and the Egyptians, and the CHinese, and the Jews, and the Romans, and on, and on,) came to the America's before Columbus did, but after Columbus did… the Americas were truely discovered. (what you history teach never told you that others besides the Vikings came to the Americas before Columbus did?)

Ernest Gary Gygax.

Albus Malum29 Jul 2020 10:18 p.m. PST

Oh… and you know… some wargamers dont play with miniatures, they put on their own armor,and fight it out for real also.. much more realistic then a wargame, standing on one sided of a feild with 500 others, staring at 500 others on the on other side of a field.

Gygax didnt invent it, but… from personal experience most were there because of Gygax.

the miniatures were not plastic, the miniatures were not miniature, the miniatures are full size, the miniatures are covered in metal. That my freind it a true WARGAME, if you have never done it,…. how can you call yourself a …..

Oh and you know….(one more time, incase you can't get it).

Violin player's hate and dispise fiddle players…… because fiddle players play fun music and they can play 2 strings at once instead of just one string. (fiddle players are not PURISTS)

ITS THE SAME @#$ INSTRUMENT!!!!

Personal logo War Artisan Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Jul 2020 6:43 a.m. PST

Miniature Wargaming would hardly exist today… yes there would be a few historian types recreating long ago battle, but thats it.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I would be one of those "historian types", and the wargaming I do now would not be significantly different if D&D had never been published.

You should read or watch the show made by James Burke.. Connections. And maybe you could understand.

I did, when it first aired on PBS, and I still have the 1978 companion book, sitting within arm's reach as I type this.

Even if you know absolutely nothing about wargaming, and even if you don't even know he did it. Gygax is the only one answer possible.

Respectfully disagree. That might well be the only answer possible for you, but the course of my wargaming life was set by the work of Charles Grant and Donald Featherstone before TSR even existed. D&D and Gygax have never been more than a minor perturbation.

Albus Malum30 Jul 2020 7:26 p.m. PST

The thing about History… people cant even agree what current events are, let alone what really happened 50 years, 100 years, or a 1000 years ago in the past. Yes there are clues to what happened, but once you put your pieces on the table, its all fantasy. Airplanes or Griffon… Same Thing… Riflemen, or Archers. Same thing. How many miniatures have to be on the table for it to be a Miniature Wargame? If you Dont have 10,000 Painted miniatures is it a WARGAME?? I only have about 5-600 miniatures painted, so im not a wargamer. I play a different scale then you, so I am not a wargamer. It just goes On, and on.

You see, the same argument is happening within the RPG world also. Which edition is the Pure Edition. THe Clone vs the original. Yes.. the Vikings and Many others came to the Americas before Columbus, but because if their small and almost unknown nature, only Columbus can properly be labled as the Discoverer of the Americas, The Impact good or bad, liked or unliked of what he did qualifies him for that honor. Like him or hate him, Gary Gygax's impact on miniature wargame and the huge impact he has had on many other facets of peoples life, puts him in the position of most infuential miniature wargamer of all time, because his influence goes beyond just pushing miniatures across a board table.

According to one artile in 2017 over 8.6 million Americans Played D&D during the year, 7500 unique broadcasters streamed over 475million minutes of watched play. OPEN YOUTUBE and TYPE IN THE NAME DON FEATHERSTONE, THEN PLEASE TELL ME HOW MANY VIDEOS YOU FIND!!!! and PLEASE DONT COUNT THE ONES OF THE GUY WHO INVENTED THE PINK FLAMINGO. THEN TYPE INTO YOUTUBE CHARLES GRANT. …. 0.05% IMPACT!!!!

Pages: 1 2