"Wargaming more controversial events of WW2" Topic

Just wondering how many of us have or would gamed more dark parts of the war, such as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, Barbarossa, the Bulge, Nanking, or parts of the Holocaust like Babi Yar or Auschwitz. I don't want to do any of these but I'm just wondering.

What's controversial about the Bulge and Barbarossa? I would not play the Malmedy massacre, but have played many Bulge scenarios. Same for Barbarossa. No desire to play any aspect of Holocaust. I'd probably play scenario in Warsaw Uprising.

The whole war was dark. Most gamers will play any BATTLE but there's not much demand for playing The Bataan Death March.

I'm not even sure what "controversial" means in this regard.

Lee's term "dark" seems more appropriate. "Controversial" … like, what is the controversy about Babi Yar?

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

I can only point out the Warsaw Uprising (not the Ghetto Uprising). I have S&T's board game regarding the uprising and wouldn't mind playing it (it's still unpunched).

I believe the Polish Resistance regarded themselves as lawful enemy combatants and, to my knowledge, conducted themselves as such. I find their struggle for freedom to be quite heroic and unselfish. Considering what they lived through, and knowing the consequences for failure, I'm amazed at the shear courage that they showed.

Without my interest in miniature war gaming I would probably be largely unaware of what the Poles did, and sacrificed, during the war. Gaming a siege in which one side displayed gallantry, against unequal odds, is my small way way of honoring, and remembering, it.

To me, miniature war gaming can actually show me why something happened in a way just reading about it won't.

Bulge for the murder of POWS at Malmedy, the murder of civilians by SS troops, and American murder of German POWS in revenge for Malmedy.
Barbarossa for the massacres of Jews by SS killing squads, as well as crimes against Soviet POWs.

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is different than Warsaw Rising of 1944. While interesting to hear other views on gaming that particular campaign that was not what I was asking about. Warsaw Ghetto was a 1943 Jewish revolt against Nazi forces and ended in their defeat. Never heard of it being gamed or reenacted despite being in the similar league to the Alamo and Thermopylae, a desperate last stand.

How would you game Auschwitz? An escape or rescue attempt, I might game that. I might game the Warsaw Ghetto as a learning tool (I'll admit I don't know much about it). I can see some of these being gamed with players vs programmed forces (ie. In 1d3 turns X happens).

I don't see how gaming the murder of POW's or civilians would be any fun or have any educational value at all.

In my view the Alamo and Thermopylae were battles. I consider the other events you listed as crimes.

To my knowledge, from what I've read, prior to the Bulge the US Army sent troops into the German held city of Aachen dressed as German soldiers. When Germans troops were caught wearing US uniforms during the Bulge the US Army executed them. War is a terrible thing and rarely played fair.

At the same time wars have freed people who were treated like, or less than, property.

What do you say of someone who wrote a book, or made/acted in a movie, regarding one of the subjects you brought up? How do you consider the viewer/reader of such media?

Like a book or movie, I think miniature war gaming can be a useful tool to better understand how things turned out the way they did. It's all history and I'd rather remember the heroes who unselfishly served to protect the rest of us sitting at home.

"To my knowledge, from what I've read, prior to the Bulge the US Army sent troops into the German held city of Aachen dressed as German soldiers."

First I've heard about this. However, had they been captured they could have been executed without trial.

" Bulge for the murder of POWS at Malmedy, the murder of civilians by SS troops, and American murder of German POWS in revenge for Malmedy.
Barbarossa for the massacres of Jews by SS killing squads, as well as crimes against Soviet POWs."

POW's were routinely murdered by ALL armies in ALL theatres. WW2 was a brutal conflict, this highly unpalatable fact may not fit with your view, but it is a fact nonetheless.

V3 of FOW has a list for the Polish home army during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising .

It's a difficult subject.
And probably because it's still in living memory.

I'm getting old now, and less inclined to be broad minded. Lol!
Weirdly over many years of wargaming WWII, in many scales, I've never given the ‘atrocities' a second thought. You could argue that all war and conflict is atrocious?
The only time I stopped and actually had to second think was when I sat down to paint some Hitler youth.

I'm happy sticking to Hollywood versions of the war, and not the reality.
The uniforms and equipment and tactics all interest me.

I'd probably be vegetarian if I had to kill my own meat, but I prefer not to think about where my nice roast beef joint came from.
(Does that make sense?)

I'm going to sit on my front drive now, which we've decorated with bunting and celebrate the end of war in Europe.

We'll shortly be playtesting an event in the 1937 battle for Shanghai centered around a large bank building in the center of the city. The originator of the game who built all the terrain is calling is "Stalingrad on the Yellow River."

Jim

After playing and studying historical/history since the late '60s. When I got back from a decade in the Army in '90. I just play Sci-fi now, but with a "modicum" dose of "reality".

Nothing "controversial" about Aliens slaughtering Human and vis versa !