"Mechs vs. Tanks" Topic

"The king of the modern battlefield is and has been the main battle tank. These armored vehicles can push the enemy off their held ground through mobile offensive power and are a key element of modern mechanized/combined arms warfare principles. When the modern main battle tank (MBT) engages a target with their main gun that is in 105mm to 120mm range, few things on the face of Earth can survive a direct hit by the shell of an MBT. However, the main battle tank that has existed since World War One, days could be numbered. Smaller, more portable armored vehicles that are also modular are on the VR drawing boards. But, could the daring of the military sci-fi genre, mecha, be the ultimate replacement for the MBT? And which one is better? Much thanks to FWS reader Matthew Kreis for his question!

Since the very beginning of military science fiction with H.G. Wells' 1898 War of the Worlds, there has been Mecha in the form of those Martian tripod walkers (watch for an Our Enemies on that topic soon!). For most works that frame mecha in the role as the offensive push in land/ground combat that smashes the enemy, takes their ground from them, and then holds it from other armored threats and infantry. The role is already taken by the main battle tank and that's a problem for government accountants. So, which one would future governments pick to fund and deploy? Well, accounting to most creators, it is the almighty metal pilot giant. If the creator has selected the mech as the king of ground combat, than the tank, if seen, are often weaker and easily handled by the mech. It would be interesting to see mechs and tanks on a equal footing duke it out…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Anything that big is just a massive target to conventional armor, Infantry AT weapons, etc. But like everything else you fight combined arms. When we use Titans in Epic they are usually the first things to die.

Just like air superiority you need to gain Titan superiority. Everything in range will blast away at them, they are priority targets. Titan should generally not fire at anything else but enemy Titans. Until the enemy has none left.

We see these large Combat Walkers, Mechs, Titans, etc. whatever they are called. A Heavily armed and armored mobile support weapons platforms. We never put close combat weapons on them. Every hardpoint is mounting a ranged weapon. Almost like warships. Destroying enemy warships and providing support to the land forces. Not the other way around …

Any enemy Mech tries to get in range to use their close combat weapon, e.g. power fist, chain fist, etc., etc. Will die from long range fire from other Mechs and much of everything else on the table.

Any surviving Combat Walkers around after 2-3 turns. Are very much damaged. And may literally on it's last leg …

Remember in the Tom Cruise WotW movie. Once the tall tripods lost their shields. They were meat on the table for that Infantry unit which took them out with shoulder fired AT weapons, IIRC AT-4s.

I generally agree with Legion 4. Vehicles that can hide behind things and pop up to shoot -- like grav tanks -- are probably a much better investment.

One interesting vignette from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising was the defensive use by NATO of jeep-mounted antitank guided missiles, which could knock out a Soviet tank, scoot away quickly, and knock out another one from another firing position. I love mecha, having grown up on a steady diet of Robotech, Macross, and Battletech, but as soon as something like that is deployed to the battlefield, the other side will come up with its version of the jeep-mounted ATGM. Weak spots like the legs and pelvis will become popular targets, and the war in Iraq showed us how easily two barely-educated insurgents armed with RPGs can immobilize the world's most advanced tanks when they attack from the right angle.

two barely-educated insurgents armed with RPGs can immobilize the world's most advanced tanks when they attack from the right angle.

And they'd shown us the same thing about advanced helicopters in Mogadishu 10 years before!

A mech is not an efficient weapon system. There are three factors that hinder them.

Your average Gundam size mecha built with materials about 1/3rd the weight of steel has worse ground pressure than three semi rigs stacked on top of each other.

Second a tank is a nice box with limited angles, a mecha is a highly complex compound geometric figure that needs to armour a bunch of things like limbs. It has a huge surface to mass ration and therefore needs to devote a larger proportion of its mass to armour which can only be a certain thickness if you want it to be able to move or even have guns, engine or a cockpit inside. See also the first point.

Third is size, a three or four meter tall tank stands out a Gundam size mecha is like the sniper who decided to hide in the church tower …

Oh, but you can put in jets and verniers and make it really fast so that the enemy has trouble locking onto you. See the first and second point.

It's a fun concept in science fiction, but we're more likely to see supersonic anti-gravity MBT's over Gundam size mecha.

Giant mechs would never be a suitable option…

… but why let that get in the way of 'rule of cool'?

If they have rules and can be included in a game, that works for me… no matter HOW impractical they may be :) .

With robotic advancements happening at such a fast pace, I can see that the science is there to logically build them and make them able to function as you would expect… so the 'hard' science is there… it's just the practicality that lets them down.

I remember a Battletech game where my low tech forces had to take on a Battlemech Lance. Someone came up with the great idea of loading high explosives onto radio controlled GEV trucks and ramming mech legs with them. THe great equalizer.

Even the MBT is no longer king of the battlefield. small, cheap, expendable, portable, easy-to-hide, infantry support AT/HE/GLLD-armed tankette-drones and RPV in conjunction with long range standoff support from artillery or RPV gunships will rule the battlefield.

The day of the massed conventional war between Russia/China/USA/Europe is over.

Mechs as a concept are as silly as super-carriers and battleships. The only good in combat they provide now is in MIC procurement turf fights.

A Mech, Titan or combat walker is nothing but a big target …

An AFV can at least hide …

But more & more we will see more AI, robotics, drones, UAVs, etc., on the battlefield.

And the 1st World will still be dealing with 3d World insurgencies, etc. Since we can't use all our firepower to fix the "problem". For fear of collateral damage, bad press, etc., etc. So Grunts & AFVs will still need to do be used … effectively and efficiently.

And no where in any scenario will 20, 30, 60 ft., etc., tall 2-4 legged combat walkers will be in the mix …

Thanks!

Amicalement
Armand

The thing about mechs is every one seems to assume they're the slow pondering things we see in WotW, Battletech and 40K. Anime paints these things in a different light, when one looks at Gundam they start off a bit slow. But are soon moving faster and more agile, heavier armor is eventually discarded as all it does is slow them down as beam weapons melt right through it.

So what are the mecha in anime, they now become a fast, agile weapon. Leg strikes can take it down, provided you can actually hit a leg of a mecha on the run. The mecha of anime have more in common with jet fighters than tanks.

Even the MBT is no longer king of the battlefield. small, cheap, expendable, portable, easy-to-hide, infantry support AT/HE/GLLD-armed tankette-drones and RPV in conjunction with long range standoff support from artillery or RPV gunships will rule the battlefield.

There are plenty of environments where that won't be true. Anywhere the density of cover for infantry is low, basically. Deserts, steppes, prairies, etc.

The tanks in Desert Storm did OK.

Tanks have never operated well in areas where infantry can move and hide under hard cover, like forests and towns.

If anything does for the MBT, it will be precision guided missiles from the air. So air superiority is vital. But air superiority won't hold ground positions. So the tanks lead the infantry in.

Anything that big is just a massive target

So very true, had a game once of 40K Epic (4 vs 4) and the Eldar player next to me lost all four of his Titans in the first two turns.

Being smarter I only had one with a crack Reactor out of my four Titans.

Big nasty things get shot at by everything that can shoot at it.

Mark Plant +1

Mithmee – I even try to get my Titans behind some cover from the waist down. To at least get a cover bonus. Even on the first turn or two.

As I have said. We make Titans priority targets. They don't last long. E.g. I've opened up with a unit or two of Land Raiders on a Titan. With a little luck they can seriously damage or even destroy a Titan. Again Combined Arm, call in FA, CAS and everything in range. Turn your opponents' Titans into burning, smoking wrecks by turn 2 … And if he has Close Combat weapons on any of his Titans. He wasted some hard points. They die before they can even get to use them.