"Planceoit - source materials" Topic

Dear All, there have been previous threads on this, but I wanted to seek your advice and direction as I embark on the Plancenoit section of my Waterloo diorama.

Here is my thinking:

We know what the modern church looks like, but I know of only one contemporary picture. Not including the famous late 19th century battle pictures, does anyone know of another contemporary picture?

If not, other churches in the area provide quite good circumstantial evidence. Siborne is also a useful source, but he does tend to simplify his buildings.

Given all this, the last shot shows my plan. Anyone with any suggestions, much appreciated! I'm looking forward to modelling what is a classic piece of Napoleonic urban conflict.

* Plancenoit

Where did you get an aerial view of the Siborne map if I may ask please

Thanks

@Marc the Plastics Man see National army Museum site: link

Also may be of interest is Siborne's smaller model at Leeds Armoury (the cavalry charge that broke D'Erlon's Corps): link
link

Siborne map of the topography: link

@thomaspicton

You have the only contemporary picture that I am aware of – part of the Stoney collection bought by the British Museum. Mail article with illustrations from the collection (thought to have been painted 2 to 3 days after the battle) link

Dear All, many thanks – I've a couple of new images on my Blog at: generalpicton.blogspot.com. It is surprising how few images exist of the battle – the Prussians just don't seem to have celebrated their victory in the same way as the British.

Marc, the aerial view of Siborne is available on Google, or at least in a slightly oblique view which I have adjusted to view from overhead.

Google Earth also provides a good view of the village and it is possible to work out what are original buildings. Street View helps as well.

Ha! I have just sent you an e mail suggesting precisely that!

I have just spent an hour travelling around a virtual Plancenoit instead of reading this first!

Great minds they do say.

Great minds indeed….

It would be interesting to know which buildings provided the best defensive positions for the French. In practice, it would have been hard to find good fire positions within the church. I think the small farm at the northwest (bottom left as you look at it) end of the village square would have provided the most easily defensible position:

It's like a miniature La Haie Sainte; today, the roof is marked "A. DUVELIEX"

Yes, I had seen an oblique view so I wondered if you managed to obtain better access to the museum. Despite it being on public display, they seem remarkably reticent I properly photographing it as archive material, or in allowing proper visitor access

PoE. That map link is the best I have seen so far. The zoom detail is incredibly good

I am really looking forward to seeing how this develops General Picton. I am fascinated by the battle on this flank, as I believe it was the decisive action – the rest of the field being a mere holding action 😂😂😂

Always amazes me how the village wasn't just outflanked, but drew in troops – I fear our helicopter vision may make truly understanding the participants' actions on the day hard to unpick fully

And PoE, do we know when that photo was taken? Be interesting to try and understand how many of those buildings could be considered contemporary

It's perhaps an obvious point but it is well to remember when on the brilliant Google Earth tours that a lot of 1815 era buildings will have been repaired, modified etc over time.

I found this most frustrating with my Ligny and Quatre Bras re fight research.

Der Feldmarschall found the Ferme den Bas on Rue Vandamme for instance just by the stream. It is a shadow of its former self following its near destruction during the battle.

As a contrast the Ferme den Haut is superb!

My Antietam research using Google Earth and the fantastic Library of Congress has shown up lots of later additions to structures.

With regard to defensive positions do not forget that the roads would have been barricaded . The Church wall would have provided great cover and FIBU is generally bad news for the assaulting force.

Best wishes,

Chris

Happy

Hi Marc, I am in touch with the NAM and will try to get some better shots, but they are in lock down at the moment. The Director is a friend so I hope to be successful. I am also a trustee of Waterloo Uncovered – they were able to conduct a full survey of the model – there is a youtube video of it at YouTube link

@thomaspicton
Well that photo has just cost me 20 minutes flicking through Jac Weller's 'Wellington at Waterloo' and reminiscing to myself about the thrill I felt when first reading it back in the 70's. All those brilliant aerial photos! And the one of the original bridge at Genappe. A great book.

Thanks Allan! The picture above of the Imperial carriage being hauled off as booty shows the church at Genappe in the background.

The Craan map published 1816 – zoomable link

Unfortunately no drawings of Plancenoit but some hopefully useful drawings of buildings circa 1816 that you might utilise as representative of the houses (?):
Sketches in Flanders and Holland by Robert Hills link

Could this be the church of Plancenoit, top sketch in the background ?

Sorry, it is not – it is the church of Braine l'Alleud (Hill, p.90). The wood before it is Hougoumont.

Thanks Oliver, a good find, but as you suspect I think that is looking west not east.

It would be interesting to know which buildings provided the best defensive positions for the French.

The best defensive position is the cemetery which the French did defend. Walled cemeteries were always good defensive positions.

Drawing of church in 1815 – but not contemporary link from Itinéraire illustré de l'épopée de Waterloo : guide historique et militaire du champ de bataille
Author : Barral, Georges (1842-1913).
Publisher : E. Flammarion (Paris)
Publication date : 1896
Contributor : Hamesse, Adolphe. Illustrateur

Les Carnets de la Campagne – No. 6 Plancenoit has some drawings on page 5. Happy to send you a scan of that bit if you let me have an e-mail address, plus a useful photo from Uffindell's "On The Fields of Glory" showing the Young guard monument with "modern" church in the background. There are banks on both sides of the road assuming they were there originally, would have helped funnel the attackers down it. The Carnet also has on page 95 a useful cadastral plan of Plancenoit of 1847.

The digital map of the Siborne model is interesting, and I echo a comment on the YouTube link – will it be widely available?

PoE – the Craan map is useful, I have seen that one before, but nowhere near as good as your first link. Fantastic map

Dear All,

I'm really grateful to everyone – here is an update on my Blog at: generalpicton.blogspot.com

Dear Prince of Essling, is there any chance that you can post the Carnets de la Campagne picture here as it's probably unwise to give email addresses over a public forum? many thanks!

In your blog, the second "spire" on the print which you photographed from a book, could well be the Prussian monument, which was erected in 1819:

link

That's an interesting idea!

Carnet links
link
link
link
Plancenoit photo links
link
link

Sticky up things that could be seen on the battlefield?

Depends where you were of course. walking the field, it does have its dips and hollows and much dead ground. Walk from La Belle All, up that path towards the Allies' right flank and Hgmt and try looking right. Every so often you see LHS, but then lose it again. Google walk shows it perfectly.

Many an artist showed that observatory tower, which was nothing to do with Boney, but instead a survey tool. It does look awfully like a church spire.

Even the modern, impressively tall, Plancenoit spire is scarcely visible , as close as the path from Papelotte to La B All on your left.

Not sure I ever did notice the B l'Alleud spire.

The Prussian monument is a relatively small thing, not easily confused with a church spire and certainly cannot be seen over a ridge line.

Thank you very much, this is very helpful!

Dear All, a major breakthrough – see here: generalpicton.blogspot.com

@thomaspicton,
What can I say but absolutely fantastic & very well done, plus a very big thank you to Waterloo Uncovered.
Cheers
Ian

As an aside, Siborne used a horizontal scale of 1:587 horizontally and 1:180 vertically for terrain.

Cadastral maps of Plancenoit centred on the church mapped in 1837 and 1858. The building outlines are of interest.

ibb.co/9YLtXXG
ibb.co/MCpdNKv

Thanks so much, Allan, this thread has shown the power of TMP to uncover material that would otherwise go unseen.

Again, the virtual map. Is this widely available or restricted access?

Does one have to be "special" to access it, or is it available for us plebs 😉

Hi Marc is there any way you can tell me your email address?

@thomas picton
The 1837 cadastral map shows how Plancenoit would have looked to Siborne when he spent six months mapping the site. I wonder if he had access to a similar map? There is a detailed cadastral map of Chateau de Gomont from 1820, so there may be an earlier version for Plancenoit.

Yes, I've used that cadastral map of Hougoumont, but I have a feeling it was drawn up for a sale? But it would certainly be great to get once for Plancenoit.

Great maps from Belgium

Can be found at link

General picton

My email

Marc dot flack at sayervincent dot co dot Uk

Many thanks

Marc

Thanks Essling, fantastic!

Marc, email sent!

@Prince of Essling
Great find – thanks so much for posting.
The base maps look to be the same as those used by de Bas & Wommerson in their 1908 work, but the troop dispositions are different (and possibly speculative).
Thanks again!