"How do you handle grenades?" Topic

Very carefully.

Now that I got that out of the way, the question is how do you handle grenades in your gaming.

In a recent skirmish game the situation came up when the range was right and I considered having a full fireteam all throw grenades at the enemy. Up to this point, no grenades have been used by me with this game system (One-Hour Skirmish).

It brought up a bunch of questions like how many grenades per fireteam and how do I track them?

My solution for the next games is to only allow a grenade to be used if the phasing player get one action for the round. This limits the grenade usage (without tracking) as well as taking the sting out of a single action round for that player.

How have you handled your grenades?

The rules I use (5 Men At Kursk), allow for everyone in the blast zone to dive for cover. Any soldier with hard cover between them and the impact point remains unaffected.

I just follow the rules of the game that I'm playing.

Some games, like StarGrunt II, don't do anything specific with hand and rifle grenades; they are just considered part of the ammunition being expended by the squad. An automatic grenade launcher is a support weapon, handled through the support weapons rules.

Pull the pin, release the handle, throw it and take cover quickly. If you feel like a hero count one thousand, two thousand, three… and throw so the enemy won't have time to throw it back. Personally I'd rather carry an M-203 grenade launcher.:)

And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

BROTHER MAYNARD:
Amen

KNIGHTS:
Amen

ARTHUR:
Right!
One!… Two!… Five!

GALAHAD:
Three, sir!

ARTHUR:
Three!

hahahha

Monty Python got some tings right

I'm going down the Battlegroup path. Grenades are abstracted in the close assault rules.

Never thought I'd "abstract" anything but at the level I want to play at, to represent all the combined arms elements at platoon level, with all the supports, in 20mm I'm afraid it makes sense to abstract grenades.

I might introduce some limiting factor if a unit is assaulting for a second time in the same game.

In my skirmish rules I allow 1 per man, but only permit them to be used in certain circumstances. link

From my understanding, most troops carry 3 or 4 grenades. That should be enough for most games.

Same as ammunition, most rules assume troops are equipped with enough to get them through the day.

A house clearing game might need more grenades, but assume they are carrying extra.

The issue for CW troops in NWE for a section was 9 no.36m bombs. Or roughly 1 per rifleman. Now I'm sure they would attempt to acquire more on occasion, and that the grenades that they had might be concentrated in a couple of individuals for specific tasks, but the idea that a platoon might have access to 100+ grenades is pretty much Hollywood, Particularly given that they would also have to to distribute the odd smoke, and AT grenade, Hawkins mine etc.

Keith, In "3 Commando Brigade" there are references to each man having 3 or 4 HE grenades. In other books are other authors saying same thing. So perhaps is different times different amounts. But not pure Hollywood.

I usually allocate 1 or 2 per man. In the past, we tried to keep track of which members in each squad had used theirs, but it became a bit of a drag. Now we typically just keep track of how many a squad has – e.g. 10 man squad with 2/man = 20. Then we just mark them off as they are used, and sort of assume the squad does what it needs to do to get the grenades to the right people. Not down in the weeds accurate, but less bookkeeping and faster play. Offset it with, as I mentioned, only giving 1-2/man.

Rules wise, they are not super effective, but you need them for infantry to close assault a vehicle, and there is a mechanic where if you throw one into an enclosed area, then go in and close assault, the "defender" rolls are all at -1.

Remember, when you have pulled the pin on Mr. Grenade, he is no longer your friend…

If you are playing a low level 1-1 skirmish game the turns may be only 5 seconds. It takes about 10-15 seconds to get a grenade ready, throw it and have it go off so it could take more than one "turn".

Defenders should have a chance to hit the deck and man-made defensive structures should have a grenade sump.

Many people are not aware that the typical German potato masher grenade was actually an offensive grenade using concussion with very little shrapnel allowing the attackers to get closer and make that final rush immediately after it goes off. They did have a shrapnel sleeve to put over it to function as a defensive grenade.

Wolfhag

wolfhag has a point if you want any sort of non-abstract analysis then you have to account for defensive and offensive grenades. Defensive go bang and have shrapnel so the thrower needs to be in a trench to avoid its effects. Offensive as has been said are essentially blast so suppression rather than kill. As I understand it in late WW1 some trench warfare had men just carrying boxes of grenades, so one size in detail does not fit all. Now how do we (Maneouvre Group )treat them .
We resolve close combat Stargunt (sort of) style as a particular action at close quarters and so they are included in that action. Typically that action will not start without significant risk to the attackers beyond about 60m, well beyond normal throwing range in complex situations. Longer ranged weapons like grenade launchers can be used piecemeal with no logging of ammunition, or as a support weapon where the ammunition is limited. We lump bullet catcher launchers into general grenades. Some I think US forces used actual 60mm mortar bombs but that was too complex for our level of detail of such issues.

Yes, again, Wolf is correct. It really depends on the scale you are playing. On 6mm scale even thought there were rules of Hand Grenades, and even maybe using blast templates for some. Generally it was easier and less fiddly to just include those in a Close Combat factor. I.e. you really can't throw/toss a grenade that far.

If you are playing 1 to 1 scale well yes your may only give each of your troops 3-4 grenades. But I think a more realistic way is to roll 1d4 or d6. Not everybody may have been issued the same number of grenades. Or may have used them[or lost] them before the action you are playing.

The old SPI game Sniper which was basically Squad vs. Squad had some good rules for grenades. I don't think I have it any more …

Ushcha – If you want to use the US 60mm round as a grenade. just using what ever grenade rules you are using. A 60mm mortar round is not the big or powerful. And you certainly couldn't throw it farther than a standard grenade.

I'd rather carry an M-203 grenade launcher.:)

So would I and I have !

allow for everyone in the blast zone to dive for cover. Any soldier with hard cover between them and the impact point remains unaffected.

Very much so … and it be should something solid like a wall, logs, etc. Not a tent.

On one assault FTX. One of the troops threw a grenade in a door way. But didn't pull his leg back far enough. And got wounded in the foot by his own grenade. That is why you do intense training. To learn what to do and what not to do. We all took this lesson to heart.

My rules for modern grenades, future grenades and World War 2 grenades differ. Some very good points have been made here.
Wolf's point on time per turn is very good. I have played in a WW2 game back in the 1990s that was three seconds per turn. It took forever to do anything including reloading a weapon.some of you older guys may remember playing them at Historicon. They were put out by a major terrain company.
Also the roll for everybody and not instant kills is valid as well for WW2 games and modern ones. Futuristic games can still be instant kills.i remember reading grenade army manuals with the arc of shrapnel paths drawn in them. Sometimes the guy closest to the grenade would be the least affected by shrapnel but concussion is a different matter.
Different countries also had different effectiveness in their grenades. As well as the delay fuse varying in time.

A house clearing game might need more grenades, but assume they are carrying extra.

In urban combat in Stalingrad, the Red Army soldiers tried to have 5-10 grenades at hand. And massive amounts of grenades were expended by Red Army in what remained of this city.

Especially in storming buildings large amounts of grenades were required, since the usual practice was to always first throw a grenade into a room before checking if it was actually occupied by the Germans. The storming parties usually went quire lightly equipped – SMG and ammo, grenades, knife and entrenching tool – which would make it easier to carry plenty of grenades.

However, the grenades were used also in defensive actions, if the Germans managed to advance too close. And in defensive positions some anti-tank grenades and incendiary bottles might have also been kept at hand, to repel German tank attacks.

In urban combat in Stalingrad, the Red Army soldiers tried to have 5-10 grenades at hand. And massive amounts of grenades were expended by Red Army in what remained of this city.

Yes, once you start carrying @ 5+ grenades you may want to put them in a pouch or bag.

When you start running around with a bunch of grenades attached to your LBE, like everything else everything bounces around.

Don't forget this:
YouTube link

At Tarawa: On November 20, 1943, Spillane was the crew chief of an LVT-1 escorting the first wave of Marines up the beach when they were attacked. "Grenade!" yelled a buddy as a small black object sailed through the air and skidded along the deck of the vehicle. Like a shortstop starting a double play, Spillane scooped up the grenade and hurled it back. Unhesitatingly, and with complete disregard for his own safety, he repeated this action as another grenade fell into the vehicle. When a third grenade landed, Spillane picked it up like before but this one exploded in his hand before he could toss it away.

"I didn't have time to think, I just kept throwing them back," he said later. "Finally, one came over with a lot of blue smoke coming out of it. I picked it up anyway and just as I pushed back my hand to throw it went off. I was stunned for a minute.

I use timing in one-second turns. During any game turn, a grenade "ready" chit can be placed by a unit intending to throw it or placed on the turn chart so the enemy does not see it. Every 5th game turn a "ready" chit is placed (thrown) on the target with the explosion side facing up. The target now attempts to react by hitting the deck/take cover, throw it back, kick it into the sump or maybe not notice it. Every 5th turn units with an explosive grenade chit check the results against the defensive measures the target took, including chances for a dud. It's still a WIP.

Wolfhag

probably best to lump them into close assault

get close enough to a house or a bunker pull nade, toss in opening, clear room, rush in. it negates cover in the room. in fact the smaller the room the greater the effect.

I suppose you can model tossing it back or grenade sumps. grenade sumps were built so grenades have somewhere to go at the bottom of the trench. alternatively Ive heard of people tossing sandbags on them successfully

They carried a lot of grenades especially in built up areas and clearing out bunkers and trenches

they had special grenadiers and pouches in stalingrad ( i think ww1 leftovers)

theres a video from the pacific where they have 2 boxes of them and just keep grabbing them and chucking them over the hill.

It depends on the level of game and tactical situation. WW1 bombing sections carried sack fulls of grenades…

Tbh I usually just factor it into close quarter battle results, unless doing something really skirmishy. I specific situations, dedicated bombing or rifle grande sections might get some sort of bonus.

This thread is so awesome..

If you are playing a low level 1-1 skirmish game the turns may be only 5 seconds. It takes about 10-15 seconds to get a grenade ready, throw it and have it go off so it could take more than one "turn".

Somewhat related issue is that when getting a grenade ready and throwing it, the soldier will not have his firearm ready to fire, in case an enemy suddenly emerges from somewhere – not good when you are at close quarters. Thus a soldier preparing a grenade should have another combatant or two covering him with a rifle or SMG. Therefore, maybe it would be reasonable to allow no more than half of a unit (at most) to throw grenades, in games where a turn represents relatively short period of time.

Of course if a turn represents sufficiently long period of time, it might be easiest to abstract the grenades into a some sort of bonus at close range (or maybe partially negating cover bonuses), assuming that the combatants mainly use their firearms but sometimes take a pause to prepare and throw a grenade.

WW1 bombing sections carried sack fulls of grenades

Pretty good idea when it comes to assaulting trenches. In WWII, large trenchlines were rarer, but could still be prepared in locations where the frontline stalled for long enough time. And when assaulting such trenches, grenades could be very handy. And once the attackers had made it to trenches, they would be needed to roll the trenches; well-prepared team with an SMG and a satchel bag full of grenades might be able to clear out quite a section of trench, if they managed to maintain an element of surprise and initiative. However, such assaults would be quite special situations.

Curiously enough, WWII might also see instances where some of the combatants might find themselves armed with nothing but a few grenades, due to shortage of firearms. I recall at least an instance in Leningrad in 1941 where volunteer units were hastily organised to help man the trenches around the city, and some men could be only issued a couple of grenades. Similarly, resistance fighters also had limited supplies of firearms, and individual grenades would be also relatively easy to hide. Polish military museum in Warsaw displays even displays a small catapult that was designed by the resistance to propel grenades during the uprising that took place against Germans in that city.

Pretty good idea when it comes to assaulting trenches. In WWII, large trenchlines were rarer, but could still be prepared in locations where the frontline stalled for long enough time. And when assaulting such trenches, grenades could be very handy. And once the attackers had made it to trenches, they would be needed to roll the trenches; well-prepared team with an SMG and a satchel bag full of grenades might be able to clear out quite a section of trench, if they managed to maintain an element of surprise and initiative. However, such assaults would be quite special situations.

Yes as well as in MOUT and/or taking on bunkers, etc. E.g. Brecourt Manor. link

In many cases in WWII this type of tactic became very much the norm and not special, per se. In both theaters … As both the Germans and IJFs ended up on the defensive. With static positions, fortifications, bunkers, etc.

Surprise, taking the initiative and being aggressive when the situation deems it is a good formula for success.

Curiously enough, WWII might also see instances where some of the combatants might find themselves armed with nothing but a few grenades, due to shortage of firearms.

Again logistics in modern warfare with all the tech available is critical. " … Professionals study Logistics".

We were taught that when throwing a grenade into a room we were to throw it hard against a wall at an angle so it bounces around the room making it harder for someone to catch it. Of course, you could not always do that.

Supposedly, during the battle of Hue, the Marines were using so many grenades that they were sent a batch of old WWII grenades.

I think the effect of grenades can vary greatly. My son threw two into a room and immediately entered being the first guy in the stick. He took an AK round to his SAPI plate as he went through the door.

One other thing. In the mid-east, the bad guys got used to Americans throwing flash bangs into a room before entering. So what they would do is aim their weapon at the entry and when they heard or saw the flash bang hit the floor they'd shut their eyes before it goes off and start pulling the trigger as soon as it went "bang". The solution was to throw a flashbang into the room without pulling the pin and then calmly walk into the room and then shoot the bad guys in the face.

Wolfhag

:cool: post Wolfhag

Again… Wolfhag for the win

Thanks guy, nice to be appreciated. My wife says I'm a fountain of useless knowledge.

Wolfhag

When it comes to keeping track of expenditure there's an easy solution: play a conflict in which grenades and/or their improvised equivalents were so scarce that they were assigned only to small, specialised bomber teams, such as the Mexican Revolution or Ireland 1919-23.