"What if Japan invaded the Soviet Union in World War 2?" Topic

"What if the Germans won world war 2 link YouTube link Japan invaded the Soviet Union in World War 2 the British Empire would still exist and Pearl Harbor would never happen. To find out how watch this video."

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Amicalement
Armand

The Russians would have traded territory for time, letting the Japanese overextend themselves, then rolled them up all the way back to the coast with the inevitable counteroffensive…

Would that have worked in the Soviet far east? Away from Vladivostok there isn't much out there. The Japanese could have gone for limited objectives and just seized coastal cities and not pushed inland. Was there an area inland where the Soviets could have rallied and still had the logistical base to push back on the Japanese?

Not trying to be argumentative, genuinely curious.

Away from Vladivostok there isn't much out there.

The Soviets managed to amass a major combined arms force at Khalkin Gol (or Nomonhan if you prefer) in 1939/40, much to the surprise of the Japanese. The Soviets managed to create logistic concentrations far in faster, and far more distant from railheads, than the Japanese were even able to comprehend, much less duplicate.

In the 1945 Manchurian campaign they did it again, building up an entire tank army "out there", except this time managing not only to concentrate forces, but then to invade over an "impassible" mountain range and keep the supplies running to their mechanized forces.

But they would not have needed to achieve too much of a concentration, because, as noted, they could have played territory for time. The Japanese would not just have extended themselves in terms of troops over space, but also in terms of POL. Because they only had 6 months of oil left, at the rate they were consuming it for their military activities in mainland China, when they stuck Pearl Harbor (and moved on the Dutch East Indies oil fields). If they had instead not gone for the oil, but initiated a new major land campaign in Siberia, they would have been running their own logistics on plant materials by 1942.

Even a T-26 is pretty scary when all of your weapons and ammo have to come 500 miles or more by horse.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Japan invading the USSR is the "Great Captain" way of waging war, you invade to fight and defeat the enemy in the field. And that works when your army can live off the land your transport relies on grass.

Remember the old adage of "Professionals talk logistics" ?

Modern armies have a huge force multiplier called the internal combustion engine. It gives them a huge advantage in the field the downside is that it needs POL and that doesn't grow on trees.

Invading the USSR which in December 1941 still has about six million untapped reservists is not going to fundamentally change things. Contrary to popular belief they didn't send everything they had back in Siberia to plug the gap in the West. They transferred a few divisions because they had winter equipment on hand and they would be much quicker to get into the fight than divisions still being outfitted and readied.

They had substantial forces in Siberia for most of the war just in case the Japanese did try something.

And what will it get the Japanese ? A chance to fight the Soviets until the oil runs out. They can win a few battles and then they hit a huge snag, adding yet another theater of operations with rapidly dwindling reserves.

Funny detail : the only really useful oil fields in Siberia are at best 1500km further West from the Japanese point of entry. Other than some test drilling the big oil fields in the far East of Siberia were only opened up in the 1950's and 1960's.

The Japanese can take the Soviets in the back and help Germany win WWII, you have to change a huge number of facts to get there though.

The bigger question is : why would they?

It would be irratioal to attack. The Japanese for a while succeeded againt the British empire in Burma as both sides were fighting a Low tech war. As soon as the British Empire forces decided to up the priority and start fighting a "modern" war with roads and vehicles and Aircraft the Japanese lost severely.

In a more temperate enviroment where motor vehicels become more usefull, they had no such infrastructure or resources to build modern vehicels, tanks, planes, trucks etc. in sufficent numbers to be an effective fighting force.

The Soviets managed to amass a major combined arms force at Khalkin Gol (or Nomonhan if you prefer) in 1939/40, much to the surprise of the Japanese. The Soviets managed to create logistic concentrations far in faster, and far more distant from railheads, than the Japanese were even able to comprehend, much less duplicate.

Bottom line, +1 Mark …

Good points. Thanks

The Russians would have taken Tokyo in 1941 so there would have been no Pearl Harbor.

The probably result would be that the Soviets would have scrapped some of the major offensives they dpursued during 1942 – mainly Rzhev – thus saving some hundred thousand Soviet soldiers from dying (up to two millions).

Afaik they started around a dozen offensives in 42, with just two being successfull – the combined Mars/Uranus.

Nomonhan demonstrated to the Japanese beyond the shadow of a doubt they did not want to tangle with the Russians on mostly flat, open terrain. It was a relatively short, small conflict that changed the course of WW2

That is very true. And when the USSR pushed into China after the Germans surrendered. The IJFs were not much of a force to resist the Heavy Armor/Mech/Motorized units of the Russians. Along with the Russian Cavalry and Paratroops. The IJF had little chance.

Even thought when the USSR tried to invade some of the Japanese occupied Islands they took heavy losses. Of course the USSR had little experience in Amph Warfare. And we all know how the IJFs could dig in and fight to the death. And many did …

Well…

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Amicalement
Armand