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"Miniature Wargames Magazine gone downhill." Topic


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Jimlad4810 Apr 2020 6:10 a.m. PST

Does anyone else share my increasing discomfort at the decline in quality of Miniature Wargames Magazine? My subscriber edition landed the other day and a couple of things really stood out.

Firstly, editing – several easily spotted typos, plus a fundamental review issue which talks about a rules set that is set in alternate 1983, then a few lines down, set in 1963 – fundamentally a very different period. Which is – who knows?

Secondly, what is it with the constant interjections by the Editor? Its been a bug bear of mine for months, but every article seems to have snide asides, allegedly ‘funny' comments and other editorial comments. It feels like the editors ego dictates that he must be in every article.

Thirdly, the quality of photography is very low – I buy magazines to in part get inspired, but looking at some of the models used in the big centre page spreads, the individual quality is absolutely appallingly poor. Not what I expect in a paid for magazine to showcase the wargaming hobby.

Finally, what is the obsession with the game ‘Hammers Slammers'? I do not know no one that has ever heard of this game, let alone played it. I know other readers who say the same thing. I'm beginning to wonder if the editor has some kind of vested financial interest in the game because the extent to which it is pushed to the detriment of other systems is astonishing – a 6 page (I think) battle report in full colour this month, involving the editor versus a buddy of his?

I'm going to be blunt, the quality of the magazine has massively deteriorated, the content become astonishingly shallow and overall its become an ego trip for someone who is running it in the manner of a poorly produced fanzine, and not a professional publication.

I'm certainly not renewing my subscription and I'd be honest and say that when you look at WI and WSS, both of them are light years ahead. MW feels like a tacky bunch of dross games, poorly written articles and chance for the editor to boost his clearly already large ego to the detriment of the quality of the publication.

Please, fire the editor, find someone who is a professional magazine editor and do what can be done to save the publication. It's a shambolic embarrassment of crud, and not a patch on its previous incarnations.

Martian Root Canal10 Apr 2020 6:18 a.m. PST

John Treadway, the editor, is also the author of the Hammer's Slammers miniatures rules.

BillyNM10 Apr 2020 6:20 a.m. PST

I found both Miniature Wargames and Wargames Illustrated were both at their best when edited by Duncan MacFarlane and never recovered after he left them as editor. Wargames Illustrated became a sort of 'White Dwarf' for the 'Flames of War' crowd which was when I dropped my subscription and Miniature Wargames followed a year or two later as I found it was increasingly non-historical and I was not bothering to even read most of it. Back in the day when both magazines started up I used to look forward to the next issue wit a real sense of excitement. Looking back at all the issues I've kept (all of the MacFarlane era including the short-lived Wargames World) I still enjoy reading them.

Raynman Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 6:47 a.m. PST

Martian, That would certainly explain some things!

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 6:52 a.m. PST

My perspective is somewhat different. Decades ago, pictures inspired. Well, they still do, actually, but I can get all I want free on line. Pretty much same thing with convention reports.

What I need a wargame magazine for--apart from reviews of new product--is inspiration of another sort. I look for scenarios, rules, scratchbuilding techniques and different ways of approaching miniature warfare. Photos should always tie to the article, and show how that way of wargaming looks on the table. Such articles are getting hard to find, and not just at MW.

There is also a tendency to narrow the readership of articles. If you write an article on creating a Tarzan contingent for IHMN, you've just restricted interest to people who are both Tarzan and IHMN. But all I can do is not buy the ones with no interesting articles: I can't make them print stuff I want to read.

Gear Pilot10 Apr 2020 7:02 a.m. PST

Most likely Mr. Treadway is contributing articles himself because he isn't getting enough contributions from others to fill out the magazine. I've seen some articles that are also featured in one of the other magazines (moon grunt articles). He seems to prefer Sci Fi gaming, so he's writing about what he's interested in.

I don't subscribe to any of the magazines any more, but pick up all three here and there when I find something of interest. Miniature Wargames isn't solely dedicated to Historical gaming, and I'm glad for that – I like a little variety.

Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 7:41 a.m. PST

I gave up on all of them some years ago. Primarily it was a matter of taste. I am only interested in historical games. Those are not as popular anymore.

I understand the publisher has to cater to the greatest number to keep his ship afloat. But they are way overpriced for the enjoyment I get from them.

Tom

PK Guy Brent10 Apr 2020 7:45 a.m. PST

I stopped purchasing it quite a while ago. When the new editor came on board, there were comments about keeping the great historical content and adding "more". Well, I'm sorry – I don't want "more" of something that I don't want. If I wanted the "more" content, I'd be purchasing a different publication. Add in the poor content, and it was easy to step away. Sad to see a hobby magazine degrade so badly.

korsun0 Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 7:55 a.m. PST

I think MW has gone downhill considerably; some issues I am done with in less than 20 minutes. It's like when Battle got melded into Military Modelling, and then gradually MM Absorbed and ignored it.
The only reason I have kept buying MW is because my local brick and mortar newsagent needs the trade, but not any more. WSS is still a reasonable read, WI is intermittent, MW a distant last. Shame, as I have bought it since issue 60 something. I judge everything by the standard of Practical Wargamer, now there was a magazine…..

gfawcett10 Apr 2020 7:58 a.m. PST

Isn't John Treadway the editor. That would explain Hammers Slammers since it is his rule set.

Green Tiger10 Apr 2020 8:44 a.m. PST

I have to say I agree with everything I am reading here – it has been a long time since I have opened a wargames magazine and recognised anything like my hobby… maybe that's just me?

Jimlad4810 Apr 2020 10:03 a.m. PST

I went through phase of disliking WI when it was 'Flames of War Illustrated' but its a lot better now.

Tabletop Gaming now comes bundled with MW and is a vastly better, and more professional, magazine.

Surprised to hear JT is the author of Hammers Slammers – that should be more openly declared as essentially its free advertising for him.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 10:46 a.m. PST

I do not know no one that has ever heard of this game

I only highlight this because you also said

Firstly, editing – several easily spotted typos

evil grin

I'm also not a big fan of Hammers Slammers but as pointed out above it is John Treadway's long time obsession. Every editor has something they like more than other things – if it was Napoleonics we'd probably never notice.

I think the card buildings they've been publishing for many months now are a "good thing".

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 10:48 a.m. PST

If I wanted the "more" content, I'd be purchasing a different publication.

But there isn't a different publication – White Dwarf is GW only, and everyone else went out of business. There are a lot of non-GW SF/F gamers, someone should cater for them, and I think MW has done a good job there. Just my opinion.

Personal logo The Virtual Armchair General Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 10:53 a.m. PST

It may be here that while the specific perceived failings of MW under its current Editorship are disappointing, the broader reality may be that all print hobby magazines are simply dinosaurs in the Late Cretaceous.

That is, they may simply be a cultural artifact whose time is passing. Not because wargaming and related hobbies are dying themselves (certainly, I hope not!), but that what they offer has been increasingly available for free via the Internet for years, and is still only beginning.

When MWAN and "The Courier" were bought and briefly melded, I was sadly sure both would die in short order, as indeed they did. Not for any lack of skill or effort on the part of the new owner, but because the costs of print magazines are just too great.

Cover prices barely pay for the printing, and advertising is all that can make them sustainable. But as gamers increasingly rely on the Internet for information, game reports, often superb modeling and terrain, the appeal for same in print form becomes less.

As advertisers see shrinking subscription and sale numbers, only those with the largest budgets can afford space in print. "Mom and Pop" providers can't begin to afford to compete for ad space--and have ever less need to with the ever burgeoning Internet audience.

Voluntary article submissions used to be the backbone of magazines, but they continue to decrease in number and quality as the really prolific writers/gamers have a wider--and more targeted--audience, again via the Internet. More material ends up being generated by the editorship, and that cannot possibly match the wonderful variety of subjects and styles formerly provided by the soul of the hobby--the gamers themselves.

I, too, want some "neutral" forum for product reviews that also has a broad audience, the service which may be the last redeeming feature the print magazines. After all, a magazine doesn't have to PAY for products to be submitted to them for review. It costs little to have someone reviewing the latest miniatures, and perhaps someone else to read new rules/games.

All in all, it's a slow motion death spiral for print, and the proof is in the number of "pro-zines" available today as opposed to, say, ten years ago. Even the "fan-zines" are gone, or at least seem so.

If some enterprising soul--preferably with publishing chops of his/her own--were to launch an Internet service that provided essentially nothing but product reviews, and paid for it all with subscriber/advertiser rates far lower than magazine subscriptions (not even to consider the insane price of International Postage), I think that might be the Chixalub Asteriod for the print magazines.

Ave Atque Vale!

The Twin Farthings Worth of

TVAG

Gear Pilot10 Apr 2020 10:56 a.m. PST

Thank you 20thmaine. That's my position. I mostly prefer sci fi and historical post the 18th century. I'm not interested in anything GW related, so there isn't much out there for me.

(Leftee)10 Apr 2020 11:00 a.m. PST

Was the Wargames World magazine the one with the yellow bordered cover and the really cool Sudan Campaign? Had good article on the F&I war too. I lost my copies – great magazine.

Jimlad4810 Apr 2020 11:15 a.m. PST

20th – fair call, but I'd argue slightly that there is mild difference between Word induced grammatical error (which interestingly doesn't flag on my word grammar check), and spelling errors that should be flagged by a magazines editorial staff – people aren't paying good money to read my ramblings :-)

My mild concern with Hammers Slammers is that its one thing for White Dwarf to laud GW products – its an in house thing. But there is a significant difference between pushing a period with a plethora of rules sets (e.g. Napoleonic's) and that of pushing a sci-fi rule set that you wrote and have a significant vested financial interest in pushing – that feels like crossing a line for me.

Redcurrant10 Apr 2020 11:19 a.m. PST

The era of Duncan McFarlanes editorship of both WI and MW were the best times for those magazines.

I continued to buy them after he left, but more often than not I would have finished the article(s) that interested me in less than 5 minutes.

I have issues 1-300 of WI, and stopped taking it at issue 300 (Oct 2012), as Jimiad48 advised it degenerated into Flames of War Illustrated. As I have no interest in WW2 it became a waste of money for me. I did buy issue 384, but that was because I was intrigued by the Black Seas ship being given away and wanted to see how easy they were to make before buying a fleet (or as has since been the case, several fleets)

I have issues 1-357 of MW, the last being Jan 2013.

Most of the above issues are in my library in binders – I haven't looked ar them in years. I have been thinking of just chucking them out but just cant bring myself to do so.

I have not missed buying them, the money that would have been spent on them has gone into other parts of the hobby.

Timmo uk10 Apr 2020 11:29 a.m. PST

brucka – yes.

wargamingUSA10 Apr 2020 12:23 p.m. PST

Resurrect Wargames Digest as published by Gene McCoy!
(okay, I just gave a way my age.)

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 12:58 p.m. PST

You could be right VAG, but I think a "real" magazine on the order of Battles for Wargamers or an American equivalent is still possible, especially given modern editing software and on-line editions to back up the print. The catch is that it has to be a labor of love, because there isn't much in it for the editor/publisher and almost nothing for the contributors. Never was, I suspect.

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 1:09 p.m. PST

This is very interesting as I had posted several months ago for information on a Cloudships of Mars rules variant that appeared in one these(I can't remember which one) and the response I received was basically I was evil because I didn't buy a magazine I had no interest in other than a specific article.

The response on LAF, to the same inquiry, was more helpful and not as vitrolic.

Unfortunately, no one had either read or played the rules, so no joy there.

In frustration I went to the magazine website and tried, in vain, to purchase that specific issue.

At that point I called it a lost cause and moved on.

BillyNM10 Apr 2020 1:19 p.m. PST

Is there no-one out there who likes the magazines as they are now? People are still buying them…

Andrew Beasley10 Apr 2020 1:24 p.m. PST

For me it gives a wider insight to SciFi and Fantasy than any other magazine. I buy the issues that I want, when I want and hope it continues to grow and cover more alternate suppliers.

As for the ‘slammers' focus – that does not bother me as I can consider changing the scenario to other rules and figure – heck I can even do that for the Napoleonic ones…

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2020 2:22 p.m. PST

@Jimlad48 – just ribbing, it was too tempting to resist!

grin

Prince Alberts Revenge10 Apr 2020 8:05 p.m. PST

I have subscriptions to both WI and WS&S. I greatly enjoy both publications. I prefer the print copies over digital. I rate WS&S the best, but also enjoy WI.

I felt like I've seen articles of Hammers Slammers in MW for a while. Never read them, but don't need every article to be of interest to me. I don't mind the occasional fantasy or sci-fi article in my magazines.

Marc the plastics fan11 Apr 2020 1:18 a.m. PST

I used to buy Battlegames as it caught my mood. But Treadaway has taken the magazine in a direction I wasn't interested in. I find the articles of no interest, especially all the Hammers Slammers, the layout is poor, the photography underwhelming. I appreciate that fantasy and sci-fi is a big market, so maybe the mag addresses that. But the art is generally so low quality I doubt it.

So I haven't bothered. I check it out occasionally in Smiths but it never turns into a purchase. WSS often does.

Volleyfire11 Apr 2020 1:54 a.m. PST

I subscribe to WSS as I think it is way out in front of the other two mags these days. The only thing I'm not too keen on is the current trend for themed editions, as if it is something which doesn't float your boat you've got a mag that doesn't have much in it to read apart from the new figs and books reviews and the regular columns, and that goes for WI as well. MW has fallen way behind since they dropped henry and the Battlegames inclusion, which I think was only to be expected.I have a friend who subscribes to both WI and Mw and he passes the mags around our little group of 4 gamers once hes read them, as I do with WSS, and I find that MW rarely has anything in it interesting to read these days unfortunately. A quick flick through and I'm done, in fact I usually manage to read it whilst we are engaged in our weekly game and don't bother taking it home to read afterwards.My friend says it's still worth subscribing to, but only becasue his current sub is £9.99 GBP a year.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2020 4:16 a.m. PST

You know, I do a certain amount of fantasy and SF, and haven't found MW to be useful to me for that. Things tend to be linked to specific rules I'm not using or--the "Hammer's Slammers" stuff--basically 1:1 WWII armor with proprietary miniatures.

Jeffers11 Apr 2020 5:28 a.m. PST

Surprising Mr T has not seen this and chipped in. He did when I said very much the same – I wrote it was like watching the death of an old friend – on another site. It was a bit of a tear-stained rant and supported by the owner of the site, so I figured I was in the minority there…

Sadly, I have to agree with TVAG. I think the time for commercial mags has gone, even if it is fun to do a bit of jumpers for goalposts when we look back at the early years of MW and WI under Duncan Mac.

If it needs scifant stuff to sustain it commercially then that is the way it will go, but it will take that journey without me on board. I'll just send a wreath.

Trajanus11 Apr 2020 8:54 a.m. PST

Most of the above issues are in my library in binders – I haven't looked ar them in years. I have been thinking of just chucking them out but just cant bring myself to do so.

Yeah know that feeling. I had both MW and MI in binders from the very first edition right up until about four years ago. Never looked at them and decided the self space could be put to better use.

Asked around and the consensus was they were more trouble to get rid off than any likely return so they all went for pulp!

Stopped buying MW shortly after when a Birthday present subscription ran out. MI will probably go the same way when the current subscription ends, I glance through it these days, WSS may survive.

One thing that nobody has mentioned is the law of diminishing returns in what people insist is a "greying" hobby. I have been gaming for close on 50 years.

Still enjoy it but well meaning magazine writers have their work cut out to impress me and buying more stuff is not that important, so the "shiny" effect has worn off that content too.

I'm no "know it all" but I have sure seen a lot of it! :O)

Just happens that way I suppose!

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2020 9:44 a.m. PST

That is a problem – articles and topics come round and round as the decades go past…and magazine buying is not a young person's way, far more likely to Youtube/Blog/etc/etc. White Dwarf is an exception to the rule, but GW always is an exception to the rule.

Tabletop Gaming – MW's sister publication – seems to have a younger readership, but it's very review focused (like the computer gaming magazines it often gets shelved with)

arthur181511 Apr 2020 9:53 a.m. PST

Trajanus, you make a very good point. Those of us who grew up with Wargamer's Newsletter, Battle, Practical Wargaming &c., have simply seen so many wargame articles that there is going to be very little really new material in the current magazines.

But, there are youngsters and newcomers to the hobby for whom an article about how to paint figures, or make a house out of cardboard, is informative and helpful.

It is them, perhaps, who are now the magazines' target audience, because they are the readers who will be spending on the advertisers' products; not us old 'dinosaurs', content to game with our existing figure collections, using 'old school' rules with which we are familiar, rather than buying the latest figures, rules &c.

Another issue, of course, is the fact that so much information that used only to be provided in magazines, such as uniform details, is now available in books and online.

Glorfindel77712 Apr 2020 1:50 a.m. PST

I find the articles that I come back to again and again are either directly related to a period of personal interest (eg. Simon MacDowall's series on the War of Spanish Succession), or are more 'gaming' related rather than re-gurgitated history. For example, how we put together a specific battle, touching on order of battle, terrain etc. Or, how I built a specific army (showing inspiration, figure choices, rules, compromises etc). Examples of the latter are Stuart Mulligan showing how he built the unusual (but superb) Army Royal for Henry VIII or David Bickley's Italian Wars project. Both inspirational stuff which bring a more personal slant and will probably address issues we all have to consider (eg. army and terrain building).

Volleyfire12 Apr 2020 2:15 a.m. PST

My friend with the MW £9.99 GBP sub recently decided that he needed more space under the gaming table in his gaming shed as it was filled with binders containing old MW and WI mags from the year dot. So he went through them all carefully removing every article relating to a period or battle each of our group of 4 has figures for or is interested in, put them into folders for each of us, and now we each have a smaller concise reference library to go to if we need to look up something when we want to put a game on.For all the years of magazines he trawled through we each got a file about the thickness of 3 magazines, we game an awful lot of periods.

BillyNM12 Apr 2020 8:48 a.m. PST

I got rid of my Miniatures Wargames issues 40-394 and all in binders (weighing in at nearly 90kg) for £100.00 GBP but I was lucky to find a buyer not too far away, otherwise shipping would be prohibitive. I kept the earlier MacFarlane issues.

Warspite112 Apr 2020 9:11 a.m. PST

I must admit that, having written for one of the magazines a few times, I am decrying the general quality in all. Much of the content is product-related and often revolves around the next BIG thing to spend money on and that, of course, means that grateful manufacturers will buy advertising space and keep the magazines going.

What I am missing is the voice of the small man, the wargamer with the off-beat ideas or the small home-produced rule book.

Barry

altfritz12 Apr 2020 10:37 a.m. PST

I remember Wargames Illustrated being accused of favouring this company or that company long before it was taken over by Battlefront. Way back it might have been Wargames Foundry, or Connoisseur Miniatures, or Front Rank.

As far as historical content, surely every battle and conflict has already been covered in detail by one or more of the wargames magazines. The long running ones must be up into 200 (300?) issues each by now! It must be hard to find something fresh. I recall how Wargames Digest started to recycle their earlier articles.

Somebody pointed out that it depends upon the articles available. You want to influence the content, trying contributing something. :-)

UshCha13 Apr 2020 11:42 p.m. PST

I wrote an article on a card model for SI-FI as a introduction to card modelling. I was fed up of reading second rate cut and paste articals thet were clearly just re-gurgitated history so I thought I would help out About 4 years later it got published, I offered another and was told in no uncertain terms it was not wanted "Our advertizers don't sell card" we only put it in as we were desparate" which lsays it all, and that was many years ago.

Minature wargames for a short time a few years ago was run by a guy in Derby and we were pursuaded to write an article on Khafji. While it got central billing it cost us nearly 6 weeks of hard work and to be frank the increase in sales was minimal and as a volentary piece of work it was more than was comfortable.

I did have a friend who used to write for the Aeromodeller in his younger days but then you got paid £60.00 GBP when that was a significant amount of money. Now I would not write for a magazine, the constraints on print are far harder, writing a scenario where length is not critical is much easire.

I have to agree that the age of the print magazine is over it can no longer offer anything I want. To me pictures were always too many, not like wargames and to me a waste of space. I guess that in these times folk are more discering and want stuff more tailored to there requirements.

Basha Felika14 Apr 2020 2:13 a.m. PST

I wouldn't write off print magazines so quickly

If you look along the magazine racks, there's just as many ‘hobby/pastimes' publications as there ever was, even for those interests, such as computer gaming, that you would expect to have largely moved online.

I doubt there's even been more than 3 different largely historical gaming publications being distributed nationally (I'm in the UK) as we do now, so someone must still be buying them.

gbowen14 Apr 2020 4:06 a.m. PST

I wrote for SPIs Moves in the 1980s and received a substantail fee. I submitted work to Wargames Illustrated and was never paid. The reader is expected to pay, the advertisers pay. If a magazine pays authors then they will (eventually) get quality submissions.

UshCha14 Apr 2020 1:25 p.m. PST

gbowen +1

arthur181514 Apr 2020 2:06 p.m. PST

gbowen, I hope your comment about not being paid by Wargames Illustrated is not intended to imply that contributors of articles to Miniature Wargames have not been paid by its current publishers?

I feel I should state, from personal experience, that Warners Group does pay contributors of articles published in Miniature Wargames.

gbowen15 Apr 2020 2:17 a.m. PST

arthur1815 I have had no dealings with Miniature Wargames but I am owed payment for work submitted to Wargames Illustrated in the 1990s

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2020 12:05 p.m. PST

Worst part of the blogs as a substitute is that it's even worse than trolling through old magazines trying to find the article you remember. At least the magazines are still there, and have tables of contents. (Second worst is that there's no editor to insist you actually write all three parts of your three-part article.)

If you could actually form a virtual binder of such things so they'd always be available to you, it would lessen my discontent at the demise of the magazines. But the tech doesn't appear to be there yet.

arthur1815, Warners Groups pays peanuts--and by EFT at that, so your bank will make about as much as you will on a short article. No, they won't save up and pay in one sum to minimize the EFT charges. They won't do anything else useful either. I went through about half a dozen ways to minimize the damage. They were all against corporate policy. Adjusting for inflation, I was better paid by a science fiction fanzine in the 1970's.

I would rather submit to an editor who didn't pay at all, but expressed an interest in receiving a submission.

arthur181516 Apr 2020 4:04 a.m. PST

I can only speak for myself, but I've always received nothing but courtesy and encouragement from John Treadaway, the current editor of Miniature Wargames.

He is, of course, not responsible for how and how much Warners Groups pay their contributors.

Their rates may be 'peanuts' to you, but the money I've received for articles has bought me quite a few figures and books, so I'm not complaining.

dampfpanzerwagon Fezian16 Apr 2020 12:25 p.m. PST

I agree with everything arthur1815 says in the post above.

I have nothing but praise for John (and for that matter the two editors who came before him.

I would suggest that the old adage -

Use them or loose them hold very true at this moment in time.

Stay safe

Tony Harwood

1815Guy28 Apr 2020 4:45 a.m. PST

Lots of good comment here. I agree entirely with the Duncan comments. Not onky a more interesting time for the mags, but delivered with some considerable style and panache in the marketing at Shows. His payment system for authors was as slow as it was flexible, however! .

The physical quality of MW was often a bit dodgy, especially the maps, but this was the era before decent graphics software was widely available.

The mag I REALLY miss, though, is Practical Wargamer. It got everything just right.

Today mags offer poor value. They are a victim of the Internet.

Nice photos to inspire – Google Image
Period research – Google Search
Letters to the Editor – Internet forums
Game replays & painting skills – YouTube
Adverts & hobby news – forums and Search engines
Feature articles & Reviews – Blogs

All free. Why pay £5.00 GBP for someone else to choose what they want you to read, & with all those wasted pages of stuff you don't like? You can download a whole Kindle book for that, or pick up a 2nd hand reference tome.

Mags must be finding it as tough as newspapers are atm. Neither have found their niche USP yet. Going period-niche as say, Society of Ancients do, might be a reasonable strateg; or going all-in for depth of articles by period experts. But Hammers Slammers Show and Tell sounds like A Niche Too Far.

Terry Naylor22 May 2020 5:13 p.m. PST

MW has been poor for years. Childlike articles , poor presentation and a magazine that was always second best.
Treadway has increased it's demise . His love of sci-fi will always overide anything else.
He is partly responsible for how Salute has
gradually embraced sci fi/fantasy over historical. Hammer rules are a South London warlords concept and l know no one outside this little group who have any interest in it.

McFarlane's day at WI were maybe the golden days of print . He had style and his hand in glove approach with the great Peter Gilder set it light years ahead of anyone else.
Not commercially driven article's , independent mind of thought and with the introduction of Mike Siggins later it had something really worth reading.
Both will not survive as they are so poor.

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