"Pale yellow colour for the 5th Foot?" Topic

Dino ?Lemonifides?, in the last century. published a booklet on British Colours, and alleged that the 5th did NOT have a gosling green regimental colour. It was pale yellow, to better show off the green dragon on a green field, and the green wreath surrounding. Admittedly, the ugly colours done in gosling green by other 28mm flag makers look xxxxxxxx.

Is there anyone making British Peninsular War colours who can do the 5th regimental colour in pale yellow?

By the way, Doctor Watson of Sherlock Holmes fame served in the 5th Northumberland Regiment of Foot! If you have any non-gamer friends who are Sherlock Holmes fans, these colours could be a great gift!

GdeP

The fith were 'gosling' green-faced, not pale yellow. The
regimental colour also had the 'gosling' green field.

Scroll down to the 5th in this link. You will find 7 contemporary miniatures showing the facing colour. Don't worry too much over the shading as that would be down to the interpretation of the artist, age of the picture and the fact that even, in reality, dye batches were not consistent in hue.

I do believe that I may have a picture of the colour too. If I have, I'll post it tomorrow.

PS. Can you tell me what book you got the statement from?

Hi, Dibble!

"Dino" noted that the did NOT have a gosling green colour, that it was in fact pale yellow. Also, the regiment had a third, smaller colour of green.

This unit is also unique in that the drummers wore white coats with white and gosling green figures on the tapes.

The sergeants wore solid crimson sashes without the central facing color stripe.

The 7 miniatures you notes as "contemporary" are from today, not done in the Peninsular War era, and may just repeat this gosling green colour habit.

A truly puzzling unit, but good in combat – as at El Bodon when the attacked up hill, and rescued a Portuguese battery being set upon by French cavalry.

GdeP

I have checked through all my sources and can find lots of illustrations of the 5th with their green facings.

link

Here is a near contemporary illustration from 1742 showing green facings.

Here's an illustration from 1837 showing the regiments with green facings. A stripe seems to be suggested in the colour sergeant's sash.

Here is the smaller, third, drummer's colour note how the fading is towards yellowy.

All I can say is that I can find no illustration or mention of a yellow facing or colour for the 5th. I suspect gosling green simply faded towards yellow rather than green because of the dyes used.

In short, it seems unlikely that the regiment would be green until the Napoleonic Wars, go yellow for a while then go back to the green they had been before.

Gde P, the 'third colour' was a trophy supposedly commemorating capture of French colours at the battle of Wilhelmsthal 1762. According to the 1837 'Historical record of the Fifth Regiment of Foot, or Northumberland Fusiliers' (1837) the "small green silk banner" was carried on parade "at the head of the regiment amidst the cor[s of band and drummers." It was accidentally destroyed by fire in 1834.

The Fifth also wore a white feather or tuft in their caps,as as opposed to the regulation white-over-red ordered in 1800. It was entirely non-regulation and was clsimed to commemorate the battle of La Vigie in 1778 on the island of St Lucia, when a superior French attack wss defeated with such heavy casualties that, supposedly. the whole regiment was able to provide itself with white plumes taken from the fallen French. On the basis of that tradition, the regiment obtained authorisation for the ornament in 1824.

PS as the illustration supplied by Artilleryman taken from the 'Historical Record' shows, from 1835-36, the Fifth were authorised to bear the distinction 'Wilhelmsthal' on their colours, and to wear the bearskin cap and to be equipped and designated as a regiment of Fusiliers.

This was in part granted as compensation for the refusal of permission to replace the third colour destroyed by fire in 1834 when new colours were presented to the regiment.

I had it in my Photobucket archives so here it is. :)

G de P:

The 7 miniatures you notes as "contemporary" are from today, not done in the Peninsular War era, and may just repeat this gosling green colour habit.

Those pictures are contemporary painted miniatures. They are miniature portraits kept by loved-ones while the person portrayed were away on active service. All are painted by mid to late 18th-century miniaturist artists. I do not hold to non-contemporary artists unless the illustration/example is based on actual surviving items or eyewitness accounts and illustrations.

Dino Lemonifides book was printed by Almark in 1971. I have a copy that is sitting in a cardboard box somewhere in a 'lockup' I'll fish it out when I have time.

I remember posting a Simkin illustration of a 5th drummer in a post to you some years ago. Though 'like other regiments who clothed their drummers and bands in white' brings me to doubt if this was carried on with drummers on campaign as an all-white drummers uniform would have soon become a terrible state in the Peninsula.

I'd contact the regimental museum and ask them. Lemonifides may be mistaken.

Sorry G de P! I forgot to post the link.

TMP link

Just scroll down to the 5th and you will see the 'contemporary' portraits.

If you follow this link you will see Dino Lemonfidies states that the colour was gosling green just to add some further confusion into the mix.

link

Hello, Artilleryman:

The Colour Sergeant sash looks pink on my laptop, and the suggested center stripe is the same color. Truly, the sash should have been a darker red than the uniform coat – British Crimson? Also, shouldn't the plumes be entirely white? I know nothing about uniforms of 1837 era. Was anyone fighting?

Others:

I agree that the collars and cuffs of the soldiers would have been "gosling green." "Legend has it" that in the 1700's facing material was delivered to the tailors in a failed greeny-yellow-light brown goose poop color. The colonel accepted it for economy sake – would have been good for WWII camouflage! Too ugly for drummer coats; central sergeant stripe; and especially for the regimental colour.

Back to my initial question, does any 28mm flag maker have the capacity to do this colour against a pale yellow background?

Finally to all you "Brits," I mean no insult, for I admire your military greatly. I am 83, and was taken to the movies where my dad ran the projector, early 1941 at age 4. I saw all the great WWI newsreels – and earlier (Dunkirk; Singapore; Pushing Rommel across North Africa) and tried to enlist at 7. Good memories I'll take to the grave.

GdeP

I think you need to approach the flag makers themselves to see if they would be willing to create a custom one for you. If not you'd be able get one hand painted.

GdeP- the image of the three soldiers of the Fifth posted by Artilleryman comes from the aformentioned 'Historical Record of the Fifth [etc['of 1838{not 1837- my error} and via several generations of digital reproduction. However, it's not too bad at all and I'd say the relation between the pink of the sash and the red coat is fair enough.

As for the feather in their caps, five years after the Fifth were given permission to retain their white 'St Lucia' feather in 1824, in 1829 for reasons that remain unclear, it was decided that all regiments of the line were to wear a white feather in their caps, except for light infantry regiments companies, who were to wear a green 'ball tuft' ; ditto ligt compsnies. This change rendered the newly legal ornament of the Fifth no longer exceptional ( there is no record of what the Grenadiers and Fusiliers had to say).

To cut a long story short, the Fifth lobbied the Adjutant General and they were granted permission to add s red tip to their regimental feather, to maintain their sense of uniqueness. Not long afterwards, in 1835-36, they were granted the unique 'Wilhelmsthal' honour for the battle in 1762 AND the title and accoutrements of a Fusilier regiment, with the new red-tipped feather worn on the right hand side of the Fusilier bearskin cap, as opposed to the left. Clearly, the hierarchy of the Fifth had friends in high places.

Here you go G de P. I knocked this up for you and also to show how it could have looked…sort of!

Oops! should read 'Purported' :)

That's great, Dibble! I must get to a color printer!

GdeP

Would it not have been more expedient to have 'cartouched' the George and the Dragon Motif if they had wanted the dragon to stand out? like this…