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MarbotsChasseurs03 Apr 2020 11:22 a.m. PST

Hello everyone,

I have been editing plates from the great centjours.mont-saint-jean uniform website for awhile link and I decided to start a blog on the regiments who fought at the battle on both sides.

This is my first post on the 3eme Regiment d'infanterie de Ligne in 1809. Hopefully, I will be able to post more since I no longer have a job!

Link to my blog link

Michael

cavcrazy03 Apr 2020 11:26 a.m. PST

Truly a blog that is needed, and one I will visit often.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2020 4:38 p.m. PST

Good luck!
Sorry to read about the job. Join me, 2 years without paid work…

I would however, suggest some paragraphs to break up unreadable blocks…

d

French Wargame Holidays04 Apr 2020 12:07 a.m. PST

Great stuff
Can you add a follower widget please

von Winterfeldt04 Apr 2020 4:24 a.m. PST

great work shows you enthusiasm

MarbotsChasseurs04 Apr 2020 8:34 a.m. PST

I believe I was able to figure out how to add the follower widget! I should be adding the grenadiers tonight. I hope this helps give as much information as possible for those who are looking to paint the regiments.

Michael

MarbotsChasseurs11 Apr 2020 10:14 a.m. PST

Updated my blog!

link

Prince of Essling11 Apr 2020 4:00 p.m. PST

Indeed good work – well done. Looking forward to reading more.

Fred Mills15 Apr 2020 4:05 a.m. PST

Excellent, with thanks for doing this. Could be useful someplace to describe the technical process of re-drawing the MSJ images.

Regardless, what a terrific resource, and I hope your job prospects improve.

MarbotsChasseurs15 Apr 2020 8:46 a.m. PST

Fred,

I appreciate feedback. I actually just copy and paste and draw using Paint on the computer. It can be time-consuming, but I am lucky enough to have a majority of the uniforms already put together since the Guard in 1815 still had the pre-1812 uniforms. All I have to do is change them to what I feel is correct and them erase or add using the lasso, transparent, paint bucket fill and a little freehand pencil function in Paint.

Once I am finished with the 3eme Ligne it should go a lot faster since I have the base for the Ligne infantry and only need to make small changes. Right now the research is what takes the longest, but what I enjoy the most! Not being able to personally train my clients is frustrating, but I have never had this much free time to research. I have read more in the past month than I could in multiple months working full time.

Michael

MarbotsChasseurs18 Apr 2020 1:31 p.m. PST

New blog post today. It covers Colonel Laurent Schobert and the part of the Etat-major. link

Hopefully, everyone is safe and sound during this time period!

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2020 5:54 p.m. PST

hi Michael
I don't have any 'Blog' logins so will respond here briefly. le 3eme is also high on my research list @ 1805 a prime regiment under Soult. (I am conflicted by the claim of "defending Telnitz" as the 1st Brigade under Merle were there overnight and defending it resolutely @0700. Perhaps they swapped out after the lull approx 0900?).

I'd suggest some slight changes or considerations perhaps they may be called-
1- You do not need to attempt to change every rank and French word into English. They are well known (as such) and in fact more easily understood and plausible than awkward translations.
2- Officers swords are not 'sabres' and do not have the same sling, they hang in principle downwards along the thigh. There are of course exceptions.
3- I would bet the Chef de musique would wear epaulettes- he was after all a Sergent? Same Tambour-Maitre- would not wear less 'distinctives' than the men he lead.
4- Tambour-Major would have mixed epaulettes, not all gold.

5- On Schobert, like many, doesn't seem to have been a particularly distinguished officer as his 6 year hiatus to reach GBD shows. He would have been 48 then.
Despite my long historical reading, I have to say Teugen-Hausen has never been on my radar. The name Lorencez same, so I would put it down to personality differences.

Just as Thiebault (2nd Brigade- 14e & 36e) recites his 'seniority' claims and complaints against Soult (when as we all know it was N. who appointed if not directed nearly all officers positions). Thiebaults also telling comments about Saint-Hilaire (and his slow advancement) lead me to believe he also was an uninspiring leader.

Thiebault may have been a good writer (translated by Nafziger), but his own tactical failure was graphic- not commanding when his 1/14e de ligne advanced en bataille on Pratze, to be 'surprised' by a single volley from a hidden Russian battalion in the drainage ditch below the village- the 14e broke and routed back a few hundred metres where Thiebault had to rally and reform them before they could advance again.

The lack of 'command' being no skirmishers to their front to detect such a trap; the 10e legere (Morand 1st Brigade) not utilised but apparently in Col of Div to the flank.

Just as example of how 'singular' comments cannot be applied broadly when criticism or praise for that matter is 'personal'.
regards
davew

MarbotsChasseurs23 Apr 2020 7:56 p.m. PST

Dave,

I appreciate your feedback.

1. I believe I have left every rank in the correct french word and used a translator to provide the regimental history. All I can think of tambour-maitre as caporal-tambour

2. I will make the changes to the sword for the mounted officers.

3&4. Almost every picture I have seen from Otto Manuscript to Petit Soldats de Strasbourg and more modern Lucien Rousselot show tambour-major in gold or silver epaulets or trefoils and no chef de musique wearing epaulets but instead the same trefoils as the musiciens. I will say the tambour-maitre I do believe should have red epaulets as almost everyone in petit soldats de strasbourg show them in white or red epaulets. If I am wrong I will gladly correct.

5. I agree it seems that Schobert was an average regimental commander. Also, I am surprised about General Latrille Lorencez as he commanded the 46e Ligne in 1805 in Vandamme's Division of Soult's IV Corps.

Here are so pictures.

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture


Michael

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2020 11:20 p.m. PST

Michael
I understand completely you have the sources available to you.
Tambour-maitre would I suggest translate better as 'Master Drummer'.

On Otto, as with another thread some questions arise among people as to his sources (unknown) and suspect variations divergent from most [other] contemporary sources or documentation.

I'll comment on that 'other captain' issue on the "Saint-Hilaire Division 1809" Topic thread.

Now I have some muskets to paint ;-)
regards davew

von Winterfeldt23 Apr 2020 11:35 p.m. PST

Thanks, again great work and enthusiasm.

Nothing that wrong per se with the officers swords, only how you show them worn, in case you show en bandoliere – ever so often in campaign, the sword would be more to the rear – like as seen in the Otto prints above (please note also here – sabres and not the usual infantry briquet for Tamour Maîtres.
The epée or sword should be carried according to regulations around the waist and not across the shoulder, on campaign however officers often carried them across the shoulder and instead of a sword, a sabre.
Tambour – Major and Caporal Tambour are two different functions.

Sergent porte Fanion, I was under the impression they were called Jaloneurs.

As for the rings on your muskets they should be all "silver" and not bras, in case you do – or like to do a musqueton de dragons (for example for voltigeurs) – the middle ring was a so called double ring, and in case memory isn't failing me, that double rings was made of brass.

I see that you make a distinction of how sabre briquet and bayonet are carried for NCOs and Voltigeur – that is not the case, one shows the carrying according to the 1786 regulations (which you term NCO) and the other bayonet frog at the pouch belt of 1791 regulations, in the empire the 1786 regulation method seems to be the predominant style how to carry the sabre with bayonet attached at the same cross belt.

Also the shape of the pouch flap, you show yours widening at the end, but they were rectangular – please look at prints.

MarbotsChasseurs24 Apr 2020 5:46 a.m. PST

Dave,

I will take Otto Manuscript as a primary source and Petit Soldats de Strasbourg as Boersch was a witness to many troops going through that city during the Napoleonic wars. Are they 100% correct on every detail, most likely not. However, as that post states, I am merely uniforming to the best of my ability based on the sources I have, and without resources to view regimental reviews and clothing returns, I am trying to provide a well-rounded look so the reader can make up their mind based on what we have from the regiment from this time period. I am not a historian, but a fan, and I do not have access to the archives, but I did acquire the regimental rolls and registers of officers for the 3e, 57e Ligne, and 10e and 7e Legere from 1804-1811. I am using this and Base Leonore to research their service history. Here is Lt. Porte-Aigle Chevallier who was killed at the Battle of Wagram.

link

von W,

Thank you for your help. I was following the Petit Soldats for the officers en bandoliere, but will make the change to around the waist. I will put for the surtout the sabres in en bandoliere for campaign look.

What would be the correct french name for the sergent porte fanion? Sergent Jaloneur?

I changed the rings as the pictures I have seen for the french dragoon musket show double brass rings then a double ring in the same color as the musket barrel and then a brass single ring closer to the pan.

I made the changes for the sabre briquet for the grenadiers and voltigeurs. The pouch flap I also corrected.

Thank you
Michael

MarbotsChasseurs24 Apr 2020 10:56 a.m. PST

(I am conflicted by the claim of "defending Telnitz" as the 1st Brigade under Merle were there overnight and defending it resolutely @0700. Perhaps they swapped out after the lull approx 0900?).

From Davout's after-action report in Davout's Finest

Marshal Davout To The Major General Berthier in Pressburg December 1805, "Having learned during the march that the 3rd Infantry Regiment of the Line of the 4th Corps had been sharply attacked at Tellnitz, I ordered General Friant to send his division there at once. General Heudelet was charged to attack the village of Tellnitz, which the 3rd Regiment of the Line, after a magnificent resistance, had been forced to give up."

Another later report says To The Major General from Marechal Davout Lundenberg Dec 6, 1805. " General Heudelet's brigade was in charge of attacking the village, which had been abandoned by the 3rd Regiment of the Line, but not before a heroic resistance."

MarbotsChasseurs24 Apr 2020 2:12 p.m. PST

This painting is later than our time period and shows Garde Royal in 1818 and 1830, but this is the best picture I could find showing how the sabre were worn on the waist for elite company officers.

picture

picture

von Winterfeldt26 Apr 2020 10:15 a.m. PST

still looks unchanged to me – 3e de ligne on your blog.

MarbotsChasseurs26 Apr 2020 2:39 p.m. PST

von W,

I updated it on the blog now. I forgot to add the photos that I changed in Paint. Thank you. I tried my best to create a depiction of a sabre on the voltigeur officer in surtout.

von Winterfeldt27 Apr 2020 4:17 a.m. PST

Good effort, just a note, the sabre of officers would be carried in the same sort of style and fixing method as for the infantry sabre, so from the front – when the left arm is close at the side, hardly visible at all, as for officers sabres, usually purchased individually and therefore variations existed.

Widowson29 Apr 2020 5:00 p.m. PST

This is amazing research work, and the best reason to follow this site. Many thanks for all this. The 3rd is one of my favorite regiments, and I'll be re-creating them in 1/72 plastic some day soon (I hope). One of the things I most like about working with soft plastic is the ease of conversion. I'm in the process of perfecting the "arm swap."

Thanks again.

MarbotsChasseurs02 May 2020 2:46 p.m. PST

Widowson,

I appreciate the kind words. I am sorry for the delay in the next post, but I was waiting on documents from an author who was kind enough to allow me to use his SHD documents! Very interesting stuff from the 3e Ligne and what battalions took the brunt of the fighting.

Should be posting by tomorrow. Hopefully, I will be able to do this regiment justice.

Michael

MarbotsChasseurs03 May 2020 10:33 a.m. PST

picture

link

Updated my blog on the organization of the regiment and a picture of the 1st Battalion. My last post will be on those officers wounded and killed during the battle. Then moving on to the 57e Ligne.

The 2e&3e Porte Aigles I created using what was decreed and pictures from the Boresch Collection, Rigo, and details from Frederic Berjaud's website. Sadly, I am not sure if I am 100% correct, but the awards and names are correct.

Michael

von Winterfeldt03 May 2020 11:31 a.m. PST

Thanks, well done

MarbotsChasseurs14 May 2020 12:36 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

No uniforms this time just updated historical research that I have been working on. The regimental rolls can be frustrating with the hard to read handwriting, but I feel I was able to get a very accurate depiction of the 3e Ligne in April 1809 by cross-referencing names with the Regimental history and Base Leonore LdH files. Next up is the 57e Ligne. It should be a little faster as I have most of the base stuff done and now just need to plug new information in. Hopefully, this sheds some new light on the regiment and the men that fought at the Battle of Teugen-Hausen.
link


Michael

MarbotsChasseurs20 May 2020 4:57 a.m. PST

Updated with a new post on the 57e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne Fusiliers. I tried to show all the variations of the regiment. I also included the troop controls of the soldiers and NCO's, which can be very tedious, but very amazing to find so much information on individual men. link


picture

One thing to note, I was unsure of the sword knot of the NCO's so I followed Tanneville painting. When painting smaller miniatures like 6mm not a problem, but anything larger I am not 100% sure if this is correct.

Michael

1809andallthat20 May 2020 5:25 a.m. PST

Excellent stuff Michael. Thank you.

Garde de Paris21 May 2020 11:36 a.m. PST

I have not done French in quite a while, but I thought the company pompom colors had been standardized:

Green for first company
sky blue for second
Orange (aurora) for third; and
Violette for the 4th.

Are the pompoms you show unique to the 57th?

GdeP

MarbotsChasseurs21 May 2020 1:29 p.m. PST

Garde de Paris,

Those are the 1810 regulations, which I was under the impression as well. However, Sascha post shows the 1808 regulations which were a little different. The 57e Ligne had been shown in the Petits Soldats de Strasbourg collection to have red tuft over yellow pompom. as well as red tuft over blue pom poms. In 1805 they also had unique small plumes to show different battalions. I have also seen a few paintings showing different tuft pompoms per battalion as well. Here is Sacha text below.

picture

=====================

Specificification of the pompoms in February 1808:
grenadiers/carabiniers : rouge
1re fusiliers/chasseurs : bleu de roi – the dark blue of the uniform coats
2e fusiliers/chasseurs : aurore
3e fusiliers/chasseurs : violette
4e fusiliers/chasseurs : cramoisie – crimson, a dark, slightly puplish red
voltiguers : jaune – yellow

=====================

"Specificification of the pompoms in November 1810:
grenadiers/carabiniers : rouge – a pure medium red, maybe a bit toward scarlet/orange red, but not like a crimson/purple red
1re fusiliers/chasseurs : vert fonce – dark green, like French dragoon/chasseur à cheval uniform coats
2e fusiliers/chasseurs : bleu céleste – literally sky blue, but rather darker than we might think of today
3e fusiliers/chasseurs : aurore –- literaly the color of the dawning sun, a light golden yellow with touches of orange and pink
4e fusiliers/chasseurs : violette : literally violet, rather a dark purple
voltiguers : jaune – yellow, rather a pure yellow without any orange, perhaps a bit pale by modern standards"

- Sasha

TMP link

This is what I went for and included the known pompoms shown for the 57th.

Michael

MarbotsChasseurs01 Jul 2020 5:28 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

I updated my blog with the 1e Battalion/57e Ligne. Really enjoying getting to know the story of the men who fought, not just their famous leaders. https://uniformingthepast.blogspot.com

picture

Thanks
Michael

von Winterfeldt03 Jul 2020 5:47 a.m. PST

as usual great work of high quality and full of enthusiasm, no name for the Adjudtant sous officier? There was only one per battalion?

In case about those three buttons beneath the right lapel, those were large buttons, lager than those to that of the lapals of cuff flaps, or shoulder straps, they were – in case memory serves me rightly, about 23 mm – as well as those buttons at the taille as well, maybe pocket buttons also, but here I am not sure.

MarbotsChasseurs03 Jul 2020 8:38 a.m. PST

von W,

I have the names of the Adjudant Sous Officiers, but they are not given a place in any battalions of the controles de troupes just Etat Major.

As usual with the uniforms, I am using what evidence we have and then trying to produce all the information as possible so the reader can make their own decision. I have the 1807 review by General Schauenburg for 57e Ligne and it does not mention any unusual uniforms for the musicians or drummers like the 3e Ligne review from the same general.

With the buttons, it is a compromise between putting them on the coat or not fitting them altogether. I actually made them using the buttons from the coat, but I will see if I can try to make the larger buttons fit correctly.

What is a taille?

Thank you for your comments.
Michael

von Winterfeldt03 Jul 2020 10:57 a.m. PST

taille – is the back, where it is narrow , there usually two buttons sit, from each of them a fold or a slit (officers) rund down in the coat tail, they were of large size as well.

MarbotsChasseurs03 Jul 2020 11:17 a.m. PST

Ah now I know what you are talking about! I was about to say since I looked it up and it said it was a tax!

Right now my focus is on the killed and wounded at the battle. The regiment was hit pretty hard. My count at the moment is 40 KIA, 26 MW, and 60 WIA. I have only finished one of the controles de troupes so the total will grow since I have 500 pages left to check. All of these men had at least 4 years of service with some dating back over 20 years. I must also add the majority of the wounded retired at the end of 1809.

Michael

von Winterfeldt03 Jul 2020 1:22 p.m. PST

I am impressed by your dedication, very professional, glad that I can on and off help you with a morsel of information, keep on going.

MarbotsChasseurs03 Jul 2020 1:42 p.m. PST

Thanks, von W!

I must say it is very tedious, but at least with the 57e Ligne, almost every page has a soldier as a casualty from the Battle of Thann. The 3e Ligne was very frustrating since there would be 20-30 pages at a time without finding anyone. The battle of Heilsberg and Friedland really hurt the 3e Ligne in 1807. Also, whoever filled out the Controles for the 3e Ligne had very hard to read handwriting. Before reading the controls based on the officer casualties I would have thought the 3e Ligne would have more killed and wounded! However, this is why I decided to do this project since I feel this battle was more important than history gives it credit.


This is why I do the research because I find great little pieces of information like below. Chef de Musique Jean Brioude(54) and his musician son Pierre Brioude(22). I am able to put a name and a description to the paintings of petit soldats de Strasbourg from Christian Boersch that he most likely modeled his miniature figures from! For me, this was a great find.

picture

My personal opinion based on my research so far, is that the Battle of Thann was more deadly than any other battle in 57e Ligne history from 1804-1815. Taking the numbers from the situational report from April 15, 1809, the percentage of killed and mortally wounded from the battle is very high. Without the Emperor and Marchel Davout according to what first-person account you believe, for the majority of the battle, it gets very less attention than Essling and Wagram. Regimental histories are what I enjoy the most and hope at some point to put a few together for English speakers.

Michael

MarbotsChasseurs08 Jul 2020 5:35 p.m. PST

New blog post on the 57e Line Regimental Staff. https://uniformingthepast.blogspot.com

picture

Regimental Staff Roster 1809

picture

Thanks for looking,
Michael

Probert09 Jul 2020 1:28 p.m. PST

Thanks for the blog. The centjours.mont-saint-jean website has been down for four or five days.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP09 Jul 2020 1:45 p.m. PST

Fear not.

It has done this before.

It is not a sign nor a portent of the End of Days, even if it feels like it.

Until one day it is such…..I wish I could quote chapter and verse, but it is a funny thing, our lot was not encouraged to read the good book itself. We were instructed in the content instead, lest we reached our own interpretation.

MarbotsChasseurs09 Jul 2020 2:21 p.m. PST

JC miniatures blog has a lot of the plates that he edited many years ago.

picture

von Winterfeldt10 Jul 2020 11:06 p.m. PST

Nice plate but a hanger for foot officer's sabre? Also the cartridge pouch – I would opt for a rectangular flap and not a conical one.

MarbotsChasseurs11 Jul 2020 5:45 a.m. PST

Von W,

That plate is from JC miniatures blog which has been not updated in 10 years. I believe most people just want a reference plate for colors of uniforms and not so much for accuracy of how equipment was worn. Since mont saint Jean uniform was down for a few days for updates, JC site still has a lot of edited French, British,and Allies plates for Battle of Quatre Bras.

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