"1805-7 Russian Hussars" Topic

I know that the standard plume of the early period was a falling feathers affair, but I'm sure I've seen a Viskovitov illustration with Hussar officers in the early shako with the big bush plumes, like the grenadiers of the era.

Does anyone know anything about the bush plume on hussars? I don't find any written mention of it in any source. Perhaps it was particular to the officers of one particular regiment or another.

The next style following the original shako with the falling feathers plume was the 1809 French Style shako with a thin plume, right? And then this was followed in 1812 with the kiver and the thin plume.

I know this is a simplification, but I just need to know about the bush plume in the early period.

Any help would b e much appreciated.

More pictures from this website link

I do not know a ton about uniform details for the Russian army, but this is what I have collected.

Michael

Wow, great pictures! Thanks MarbotsChasseurs.

Wasn't the infantry busch-plume made out of wool?

Rain-sogged woolly plume might be too heavy on top of a horseman's cap.

Dry feathery-plumes would move more pleasingly in the wind/trotting/charging.

I used these painting my last few Hussar regiments.
link

Top right picture looks like an officer in bush plume with troopers in the falling feather plume. Looks like Pavlograd Hussars. Is this particular to this regiment?

Other than that, no answer to the question.

From Mark Conrad's translation of Viskavotov:

14 June 1803— The newly formed Belorussia and Odessa Hussar Regiments are prescribed: blue [sinii] pelisses; blue dolmans with red collars and cuffs; blue sabertaches and saddlecloths. Buttons and all trim: in the first regiment — white, in the second — yellow (Illus. 1501, 1502, and 1503). For combatant lower ranks, braid on the pelisse and dolman is ordered to be red with white, while shakos are cloth, with an attached visor, and two flaps for winter weather, as was established on 19 August, 1803, for noncombatant lower ranks in the Army infantry (Illus. 1502). For hussar privates these shakos have cords and tassels, or kitish-vitish, of red and white, with a red tassel or pompon and a white hair plume (Illus. 1501). For trumpeters — shakos have the same kitish-vitish and pompon as for privates, with a red plume (Illus. 1501). For noncommissioned officers — with the kitish-vitish in three colors: white, black, and orange; with a pompon divided into two white parts and two black and orange parts, and a white plume with a black top mixed with orange hair (Illus. 1502). For staff-trumpters — with the same kitish-vitish and pompon as for noncommissioned officers and a red plume with a black and orange top (Illus. 1503). Officers of both regiments are given the same shakos, with white feather plumes with black and orange at the bottom; the kitish-vitish is silver with black and orange silk; silver pompon, while the sabertache and saddlecloth have monograms which—as all galloon, fringes, and tracery—are ordered to be silk: instead of silver — white, and instead of gold — yellow (Illus. 1503). The last replacement of silver and gold by silk is applied at this time in equal measure to officers' uniforms in the other Hussar regiments (159).
20 August 1803— These shakos described above are ordered to be introduced into all Hussar regiments, and beginning from this time, the former pattern of eagle on officers' sabertaches and saddlecloths is replaced by embroidered monograms and crowns, as in the Belorussia and Odessa Regiments (160).

In MarbotChasseurs post the black and White picture above is 1502; the coloured illustration immediately below is 1501;

Volume 11 pictures (part in colour & part black & white) at
PDF link

Big bush plume is shown in illustration 1505 – from Mark Conrad's translation;

20 June 1806— For the newly formed Grodno Hussar Regiment there are prescribed: blue [sinii] pelisses and dolmans; sky-blue collars and cuffs; white buttons, red and white braid; blue sabertaches with a sky-blue toothed pattern and white braid and monogram (Illus. 1505) (163).

Prince of Essling,

That pdf link is awesome. I actually was playing around with making some Russian 1806-1807/French unit plates and this helps. Do you by chance have one for the infantry as well?

Try this and you will find much much more

link

Russia
Historical description of the clothing and equipment of Russian troops, with pictures
Edited by: Viskovatova A.v.
Original title: Historical clothes and opisanie Rossijskih vooruzhenija vojsk, with pictures
Publisher: Military typography
Place of publication: Spb.
Year of issue: 1841-1862
The multivolume work "Historical description of clothing and weapons to Russian troops, with pictures, was compiled by the highest commandment of" coming out in St. Petersburg in 1841-1862 Gg. Richly illustrated publication contains detailed description military and civilian costume for the period from 862 until the reign of Emperor Nicholas I, military uniforms, weapons, banners of various military units and military insignia.
Edition came out in the form of notebooks with the attached illustrations in two versions: in an expensive (Whatman, and figures on the Chinese paper) is a partially painted illustrations, and cheaper (text in French, drawings on wove paper)-with black and white illustrations.
All 30 volumes in pdf or djvu at: runivers.ru/lib/book3093

Illustrations by volume:
Volume 1 – colour
Volume 2 – black & white
Volume 3 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 4 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 5 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 6 – mainly colour
Volume 7 – mixture (most uniforms in colour)
Volume 8 – mixture (many uniforms in colour)
Volume 9 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 10 – black & white
Volume 11 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 12 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 13 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 14 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 15 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 16 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 17 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 18 – mixture (uniforms in colour)
Volume 19 – black & white
Volume 20 – black & white
Volume 21 – black & white
Volume 22 – black & white
Volume 23 – black & white
Volume 24 – black & white
Volume 25 – black & white
Volume 26 – black & white
Volume 27 – black & white
Volume 28 – black & white
Volume 29 – black & white
Volume 30 – black & white

Napoleonic/Revolutionary Wars are Volumes 5 to 18.

This trail of text and illustrations is what brought be to the place where I asked the question. Why do some illustrations show the Bush plume when the text calls for the hair or falling feather plume? There's nothing about it in the text. That's why I'm asking the forum.

Thanks.

From my reading and rereading of the Viskavotov text, the illustration in which it appears applies solely for the Grodno Hussars. The text doesn't say that this version was rolled out to other regiments.

The next shako change listed is 11 November 1809— All combatant ranks of Hussar regiments are to have shakos[kivera] of the same pattern as in use at this time in Grenadier regiments, with the plume, buttonhole loop, cockade, and button all as before, and with cords and a pompon in the same color as the braid on the dolman (Illus. 1508)…………….

However illustration 1513 is again of the Grodno Hussars again showing the bush plume (also for the Lubny Hussars).

Next shako change shown is "In the beginning of 1812, all combatant ranks of Hussar regiments are given new shakos, identical with those authorized in this year for Horse-Jδger regiments, except with cords and a pompon in the same color as the braid on the uniform and with a buttonhole loop and scales in the same color as the buttons.………."

So either a consistent error with Grodno or they were different? Will see if other Russian sources can throw any light on this

Have had a look at Zvegincov 1801-1825 – he shows:
1803 officers of Izoumski & Belorusski with the Bush plumes; 1809 also an officer of Olviopolski with the bush plume.

Have had a further look at Zvegincov 1801-1825. He shows only officers for all regiments with the bush plumes from 20 August 1803, the remainder had the falling plume.

Also see Life Guard Hussar illustrations at yadi.sk/a/x3bLYNhC3ZS2P8

link

Definitive answer should be in Armija Alexandra I. by Leonov, O./Popov, S./Kibovskii, A.
link

Prince of Essling,

Thank you for all your information! Now if that last book is ever translated into English that would be great. The 1806-1807 campaign in Poland is one of my favorites and the Russian uniform of that time period is very sharp.

Thank you,
Michael

So the officers of Grodno, Izoumski, Belorusski &Olviopolski wore the bush plume, and all others the Falling feather plumes?

I hate to ask – but why those regiments?

@Widowson – no. My further post on Zvegincov 1801-1825 indicated officers in all regiments had the bush. Also for the Life Guard Hussars. Apologies if my wording was not clear.

Heer und Tradition plate 78: "Die Russische Kavallerie 1796-1825 Tiel 1" clearly shows the bush plume for hussar officers – with the dates 1803 to 1809. Unfortunately I cannot find a decent version on the internet to show.

If you would like a decent copy of the plate drop me a line at Prinzessling at gmail.com with an e-mail address which can take a reasonable size attachment.

Essling,

I could swear I've seen illustrations of officers in the falling feather plumes, and the Viskovatov text seems clear on that as well. Can you address the contradiction?

@Widowson,

Many thanks.

I have reviewed the various illustrations. The officer style bush does consist of falling feathers.

On the Russian Reenactor website there is an extract from the Russian Cavalry book I highlighted above. I think it is for the Grodno Hussars, but stupidly forgot to annotate it and now cannot find the exact link – doh!!! It does show as I have described above very clearly the bush shape plume for officers but consisting of falling feathers.

Cheers

Ian

Izum Hussars (not Grodno) about half-way down the page; also some postings above is a larger extract from the Russian cavalry book link

Ive just finished painting 3 x 16 man figure regts of Russian Hussars, (although they wore the 1812 uniform). From what i've been reading they didnt wear the plume whilst on campaign, only during parades. So i cut my off just leaving the pompom.

this is what Jonathan Gingerich has to say on the wargames webside

I've been in a bit of pain watching the discussion of 1805-7 Russian Hussars over on TMP. Someone got it into their head that hussar officers wore a big bush on their shakos. (That should be big busch, not that's there's anything wrong with big bushes.) In fact, hussar officers used what every other Russian officer and general was using – a tall, thick, cylindrical plume of falling feathers. It got shortened in 1809.
The discussion missed a more interesting fact about the headgear. I believe the hussar officer shako was unique is having a metallic lace about the top of shako. (Although the lancer officers had such around the middle of the czapka.)
In fairness, it is a bit difficult to follow Viskovatov's info on plumes, as it's diffuse and relies on the illustrations. Since this is covered on my Russian uniform page, I was saddened that no one thought to link it.
So I've tightened up the notes about plumes, fixed some items in the garrison field vs. internal establishment ;), and changed a narrative about Gabayev and black flag poles :-o, and released a revision.
If you are the kind of person that prefers to cut to the chase, and not pore over intriguing images of obscure provenance diligently dug from the four corners of the ‘net to reach dubious conclusions, you can always check my webpage first:
link
And if not, I could still use the hits, to maintain some visibility in Google.-)
JG

Many thanks vW for pointing our JG's interesting commentary..

The link does not address the question. But good stuff, nonetheless.

Hi,

Does anyone know where Jonathan Gingerich's webpage has gotten to? That link no longer works unfortunately.

Thanks,
Mark

Well publicised changes, well eventually discovered -> now ->> START HERE>
link

cheers d

Ah – thanks so much! I was worried it had disappeared!