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"What the AK isn't ..." Topic


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Patrick R30 Mar 2020 3:56 a.m. PST

"The Soviets came up with a rifle every workshop in Russia could knock out from old piping and leftover wood."

Oh Crom no …

Have these people even looked at an AK ? I mean the Izhmash-produced ones ?

Better yet, have you seen the Ihzmash factory ? It's to gun manufacturing what Wolfsburg is to car manufacturing. It's massive and it allows what's called "economy of scale"

Because the AK is not made from old plumbing and pot metal. It's not "emergency production" like the Sten gun. It's a properly made rifle not something that is knocked up in a workshop overnight.

The AK isn't even cheap to make, it cost a couple of hundreds of dollars in today's money to make one. The only reason they are cheap on the civilian market is that many were surplus weapons that went for a song. They had already been paid for by government contracts. So the people who buy a consignment are getting a bulk discount so they are rid of them. Just like the US Army sold off M1 Carbines and 1911's for a few bucks to clear old stocks.

In fact a ton of "AK's" are Chinese Type 56 rifles. Which the Chinese were able to make even more cheaply and cut more corners than the Russians were comfortable with.

Granted it was never designed to be a match rifle and it's 70-year technology by now.

AK's are cheap because the initial cost was carried by Russia, China or whoever made their own version. They ended up making a 100 million so that they easy to find and cheap to buy in any conflict area, leading people to conclude they must have been super-cheap to make, hence the idea that any workshop could make them.

Another issue is that US manufacturers are trying to align their prices on surplus rifles and need to cut so many corners they are generally mediocre at best. Again reinforcing the idea that they are cheap, shoddy weapons and you get a ton of legends like the AK being only meant to be used in one battle and then thrown away and replaced with a new one or that the Soviets designed it with built-in planned obsolescence, where an AK's performance is superior in the first few weeks of use and then degrades rapidly so that the enemy cannot use them against their own people. Or that the AK is inherently inaccurate so that Soviet troops would be forced to charge the enemy using spray and pray tactics in human waves.

It's all BS …

The AK was designed to be just another rifleman's weapon, nothing more, but it was never something they made from old shovels and driftwood hammered and drilled together into a functioning rifle. It wasn't even designed to be made that way, it lacks the features for machine shop production weapons like the Grease Gun or Sten do have.

It was what the Soviets at the time considered the best option and put in the virtues and defects they were willing to live with with. For their military it was an adequate weapon, maybe not the best possible, but certainly far from the worst.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian30 Mar 2020 4:03 a.m. PST

But where do you stand on the question of whether it was a Russian design or a (mostly) German design?

Col Durnford30 Mar 2020 5:42 a.m. PST

Interestingly enough, I recently was in a local gun store and asked what ever happened to all the AKs. This shop had racks and racks of M-16/AR-15 knockoffs as well are quite a few more unusual types, but not a single AK (even in the used racks). He said the price of the higher end rifles had come down so low that no one was buying AKs anymore.

Personal logo Dentatus Sponsoring Member of TMP Fezian30 Mar 2020 6:04 a.m. PST

Read "The Gun" by CJ Chivers. All about the AK. Very good read anytime but certainly under quarantine.

dragon6 Supporting Member of TMP30 Mar 2020 8:20 a.m. PST

It's a Russian design but a German concept

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP30 Mar 2020 10:01 a.m. PST

Dentatus is exactly right – "The Gun" is a great book and Chivers is a very well qualified author, being not only a journalist but having commanded a Marine rifle company

The concept of the assault rifle was certainly German but the AK was the result of a rigorous design competition that included having considerable thought as to what would be a solid, reliable and well performing front line weapon for the Red Army – and they without question succeeded

Aviator30 Mar 2020 2:09 p.m. PST

Ian McCollum's site Forgotten Weapons has videos covering a lot of this – both Soviet and German weapons are looked at in detail.

InRangeTV also has relevant videos including mud tests which are interesting

Patrick R31 Mar 2020 3:30 a.m. PST

The concept had been approached from several angles.

Many nations touched on the concept of some kind of automatic weapon firing an intermediate cartridge. From the French Ribeyrolles semi-automatic rifle to the suggested .276 Pedersen BAR and M1 or the Russian Fedorov and several other designs.

Full power ammo had become the requirement in most armies at the end of the 19th centuries that expected troops to engage at long ranges over open sights volley firing away at the enemy.

Until they realized they needed close range firepower for which the only suitable ammo was pistol-calibers.

They then looked at intermediate cartridges like the US .30, the German 7.92mm Kurtz, or the Soviet 7.62x39.

Nothing the Germans came up with was new, it had been figured out at some point in another weapon. What they did was create a really handy, highly effective new combat weapon.

Meanwhile the Soviets have a well-documented history of working on a range of semi-automatic rifles, some prototypes using a similar magazine as the Fedorov. They came up with the 7.62mm based on a pre-war general military study.

Note however that when the AK is finally developed, the main weapon of the Red Army is the SKS and the AK was meant to replace the PPSh in the SMG role. It took a few years for the Soviets to figure that the AK was a superior weapon to the SKS.

The various claims that the Soviets needed the Germans to make the AK are circumstantial at best. According to reports the Germans were kept separate from their own design teams and worked on other projects. Similarly Kalashnikov was already involved in design at various points before working on the AK. He had been tinkering with things since he was a kid and had a natural aptitude for all things mechanical.

Mechanically the weapon is very different from the German version and is a straight continuation of previous Soviet designs.

Did the STG inspire Kalashnikov ? Well the answer is more complicated that that. The Soviets had many designs going during and after the war, all sharing a very similar pattern with the German STG, clearly they were all competing to be the best design of a certain pattern of weapon requested by the Red Army. Is that pattern based on an early captured version of the MKB42 or similar design ? Probably. Copying the pattern of a new design isn't new or even extraordinary. The French came up with the modern bolt action weapon and everybody rushed to make their own version, they did the same for the 1897 75mm gun, or Maxim's revolutionary new weapon the automatic Machinegun.

Almost every part of the M16 is derivative of an earlier design and nobody has ever accused Stoner or Sullivan of merely copying other designs.

The Soviets were the enemy and anything you could find to make them seem incompetent would be used against them, once people heard Schmeisser and others were kept in Germany for several years they attributed each and every gun in the post-war Soviet arsenal to their hand. How did we know the Soviets were incompetent ? The German generals told us, that they had no finesse or skill and only won because of the brutal winters and hurling endless hordes at every problem.

And we still believe that narrative to this day, despite Soviet and German archives telling a very different story. The reality is that Soviet engineers were quite competent in their own way, were clearly forward-thinking and made stuff that worked if it lacked the extra spit and polish a capitalist system could afford to put into the gear they gave their soldiers.

The AK is a highly successful design no matter what.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse13 Apr 2020 10:09 a.m. PST

The AK is a highly successful design no matter what.
Yes in some places in the world you can't swing a dead terrorist without hitting an AK(s) ! evil grin

Wolfhag14 Apr 2020 5:57 p.m. PST

With many terrorists there isn't enough left to swing.

Wolfhag

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