"Visibility and spoting" Topic

Well we are all in lock down so no playing except for solo so we need to think of topics that we can discuss in a useful way. One that springs to mind after my one a day exercise, while social distancing was, visibility and spotting.

Now the real world is complex so we have to stylise what we do, but we need to get at least some grip on reality.
For instance spotting troops on the ground,walking doing their best not to be seen, not sky lined and making use of cover. How far away and how fast can you spot them. As that is a bit like asking how long a piece of string is here is a baseline.

The situation is an observation point say 10 ft up on a large open plane with hedge rows 4 to 5 ft high (about 50% mix of both heights) The hedges are about every 500yds, assume roughly square fields. For reference the horizon is 3.9 miles away (typical value for this height on a plane). You are scanning a 45 degree sector to your front. This gives about 9 miles of hedge to look at.
The weather is bright overcast spring day so the green is similar to the camouflage colors and only the naked eyes and binoculars are available.
That is a lot of hedges to look at for troops using binoculars. Realistically that may just be too much and at 3 .9 miles away even moving in the open may not be an easy spot with camo gear, not walkers in bright colors.

So take this as a starting point discuss; note the baseline is not that daft for parts of the UK but again feel free to discuss both the baseline situation and/or the solution.

Hi UshCha,

This reminded me of a British Army training film from the 70s called Finding the Enemy.

YouTube link

Food for thought perhaps.

For gaming purposes, if LOS is clear you have a shot. If target is hull down or Infantry next to/in cover or concealment, the target gets cover bonus of whatever you call it in your rules.

But again you must have a clear LOS to take a shot at anything. If a target is on high ground, based on the Firing Unit's location, you may have a shot. But if you can see him … he can see you – sighting reciprocity.

If you are going to take weather/limited light situations that may require some more rules/die rolls …

Kroptkin,
Thanks great link. It was interesting that actually they were only spotting out to 300 or a bit more. I wounder if moving carefully that is about the limit in relatively close terrain where there is always a good background like a hedge to help minimize the silhouette.

Legion your solution seems a bit classic War games. In our own games at the simplest, you would be spotting a markers that may or may not be real. In our more sophisticated games you would have no marker, if the enemy had time to camouflage before the game. In most games camouflaged troops in a standard game are not seen unless they move of shoot. This stops the dreadful, everybody spots the same target and its impossible not too spot it as there are so many rolls. In Barker's 1925 to 1950 I did get a change so any element could be rolled for only once each bound but that was difficult to implement if more than a platoon on table.

But I wounlder how long would it take before such an enemy had to take a "leak" or go an fetch supplies. Especially if He was not aware of being observed. Critical in longer "campaign" type games.

If not moving, and/or well camouflaged, it is surprising how well people and vehicles can remain hidden, even at very short ranges.

Thresher, one of the reasons tho' Mc Laddies may not approve as its a bit anechdotal is a friend at the wargames club an ex-serving man noted how they remained hidden but a few feet from the enemy. Also I, though not trained played Laset Tag and lost horribly to a guy 6 ft away well hidden. but spotting at distances over about 300m is of interest. we play games with ranges of arond 2.5km in places so what the recon can see at that ditance matters. easy to se supply tucks but infantry on foot and even tanks moving slow and carefully may be an issue. For instance is the diesel
l smoke of a 432 on the move noticeable in low wind conditions at range?

Legion your solution seems a bit classic War games.

Been war gaming since the '60s, along with 10 + years doing 1 to 1 scale "gaming" in the US ARMY. So …

you would be spotting a markers that may or may not be real.

if the enemy had time to camouflage before the game.

Yes we'd use rules for Hidden units/markers.

I did get a change so any element could be rolled for only once each bound but that was difficult to implement if more than a platoon on table.

Clearly not a good game mechanic for larger games, but it is a technique …

an ex-serving man noted how they remained hidden but a few feet from the enemy

I've been in similar situations in the jungle, etc. E.g. in the middle of a rainy night in West Germany hiding between to houses in a village. I one on my right turned out to be a Canuck Leo. Didn't know that until I touched …

Legion 4, as I said not ideal, which is why simplified it for no spotting if they have time to camouflage, which is always the intent if you are the defender. At a price of time the attacker can do a lot to stay hidden but it may be a lethal slowness.

That's why 1 moving 2 watching was invented. Somebody has to go point.

Also allows the classic Hells Highway where the trasport column had 1/3 passed before the Germans struck from hiding, try that with a Featherstone clone.

Do what works for you best. But as we know we can only do so much on the game board vs. reality …

Crossing movement is much more visible too.

Anything coming straight at you, or going away is far less so, especially if that is being done slowly.

The real issue is the time period observing (how long do you get to search, as well as night time modifiers), spotter movement if any, and other intervening battlefield conditions, e.g. smoke, fog, rain, snow, etc., in addition to the camo.

Yep, even amateurs can remain hidden just a few feet or yards away if the terrain is right, e.g. tall grass, undulating terrain, bushes, trees, rocks, etc., etc..

Sometimes, even when firing, its hard to spot the shooters, especially if they're using smokeless powder and small arms. You may be able to hear the general direction, but localizing that is much more difficult.

I played a bocage game with my son once, where I was the Americans and he was in control of the Germans. Basically, I ruled that I pretty much couldn't spot his vehicles until after they fired (maybe a 10% chance to spot them if they blew their cover, but only from short range, to reflect camouflage discipline failure), and even then if that unit was eliminated and others weren't close by and looking in the right direction, the tank/SPG could remain hidden (I think I used a 50% chance for others to be looking in the right area to spot units that fired). Units hit and knocked out couldn't report details to others.

That seemed about right to me, and was quite eye-opening.

Had to put out Shermans and halftracks to draw his fire, and hope for a miss from him. Used a few jeeps and M-8 scout cars too, but there weren't enough of those to go around, and the "commander" of the offensive was impatient to gain ground (probably under the command of General Patton).

Recon under those rules is a lot more critical.

Movement is the key…..the human eye is drawn to movement, so units moving should be easier to spot. Noise is a factor that is not really dealt with but a tank platoon moving behind a wood is still 'known' to the enemy and will increase the chance of successfully spotting as everyone 'Luke's it's there.
At a more granular level, the movement of ration/supply parties can reveal more about positions than can be actually 'seen'.

We do you have to spend 1/4 of your current movement in LOS of an another unit to be spotted. If you do and the enemy has a unit on Fire Orders/First Fire, with LOS … they can take an "opportunity" fire[OF] shot …

Any fire bonus for this is ignored. I.e. a unit on Fire orders when engaging a target with OF does not get the normal +1 to hit.

Infantry of Fire Order, since they are not moving get a soft cover bonus. As they are prone or kneeling taking advantage of any bit of cover. E.g. a small fold, very low bushes/grass, rocks, etc. Even if there is no physical piece of terrain on the board. Infantry being prone are generally harder to see/target as they are using every bit of cover to make themselves less a target.

Legion we have a mechanism that does a similar job but in a completely different way.

As long as it works for you that is all that matters …

In my study of the issue, there are three ratings or classifications. Visibility is actually seeing the target.
Spotting is knowing that a target in the area by not only sight but also noise, glint of metal, movement rustle of trees, smoke etc.

Sighting is the ability to place a weapon system onto the target and engage it.
The use of terminology tends to be important when making reports.

Rudy Interesting, the middle one is of interest to me. We sort of cover the first by saying we are aware of the target. That is we know roughly where it is because somebody has seen it and told us roughly where it is.

Now the middle one is hard to pin down. Sound is a difficult one to put an answer into practical terms.
Tanks clank a lot but even that can be masked by background noise and even the weather makes a difference as does the intervening ground. We use 60m to hear a tank but only if no artillery falling within 200m. That is a bit of as guesstimate, and if anybody has a better data I would love to hear (pun intended).

I have suspected that in the right conditions tanks moving behind a low rise not much taller than the tank may betray there approximate position by the diesel smoke or in the M1's case a huge heat plume, but I do not have a credible guestimate for that. Rustle of trees looks too hard to quantify but I am happy to be corrected.

Glint of metal again complex, you need the sun in the right place and badc ammo or on the move. And it's not clear to me that on occasion if it's stationary, would that not count as sighted?

Thanks for the reply's this is getting interesting.

In gaming terms rather ,than actual Scout report terms, the middle would be justification for leaving a model on the table even after it has moved out of visual.

In scout reporting the middle is a general location method. Or a way to confirm another scouts report. As a platoon leader when you send these report forward, the company commander and S2 will want conformation and the type of method used in locating them.

Rudy. that again is interesting Typicaly once a piece has moved and been spotted it typically stays on the board. But is fi can really hide wll as in behind a hill it can be re-marked on the map until its in its new position, and again it needs spotting when it gets to its new position.

What I am interested in as I have no experience is the smoke from a Heavy AFV enough to betray is Presence if its either moving hidden or running the main engine.

If its on a donkey engine/auxiliary generator engine it is most definitely hidden as that can be remote and produces much less smoke.

Whenever you use smoke from any AFV or Infantry using smoke grenades. If it is to cover your withdrawal/movement. So yes you have probably have been seen and taking fire.

Smoke from AFVs or troops can also be used to mark an LZ or unit location when working with aircraft.

What we do is if a unit is on Fallback Orders it must move away from the closest enemy, a min of 4cm. Hopefully heading for cover. Plus the enemy fires get a -1 to hit. As the withdrawing unit has "popped smoke" and trying to avoid being a target, etc.

Now using Smoke shells from FA, etc., we use 6cm circular templates to mark where the rounds land. And these completely block any LOS if between the opposing units. Good for covering an advance, moving to new positions, etc. As well as saving your butt from enemy fire trying to blow you off the battlefield !

Smoke from engines. We were able to identify different AFV by the amount of smoke from the exhaust. We excercised doing both smoke I'd and engine noise I'd. Engines were more reliable than track sounds.
Both were used if possible. M60a1, M80, M551, M113, M557, trucks, jeeps. All had different sound and smoke signatures.

Yep all different vehicles, with different engines, weights, etc.

3 .9 miles away even moving in the open may not be an easy spot with camo gear, not walkers in bright colors.

Forgot to mention this as I play 6mm sci-fi. And yes, no matter what size a combat walker is I paint in in tac/camo colors. As I do all my 6mm Sci-fi forces. Bright colors, not found in nature attracts the eye. Then you become a target.

That being said camo should blend in with the operating environment. No matter what size the vehicles are … But some still paint their toys in circus colors … They must like bright shiny things !