"Austrian Flags per Battalion" Topic

During 1809 did they DEFINATELY only carry one per Bn? Or is this like the French "They all handed in their standards(except for the ones that didn't)?

Reason being
1) I like flags
2) My units are painted as 6 bases for FoG regiments/Brigades, but I will also be splitting into 2x3 bases for BP Bns.
3) Did I mention I like to see flags?

During 1809 did they DEFINATELY only carry one per Bn? Or is this like the French "They all handed in their standards(except for the ones that didn't)?

Reason being
1) I like flags
2) My units are painted as 6 bases for FoG regiments/Brigades, but I will also be splitting into 2x3 bases for BP Bns.
3) Did I mention I like to see flags?

go for 1792 – 1800, then they had two colours per battalion.

Prussians – 5

But I'm doing 1809. My French are in shako not bicorne.

From the Warflag's NapFlag section ion the Austrian Army: link

Then it all changed again in 1808 to one flag per battallion again. Nevertheless, aside from 1805, the Grenadier battalions which only formed up in wartime just picked up one spare Ordinarfahne, usually but not necessarily from the senior parent regiment depot. Only in 1805, when each regiment had its own Grenadier battalion as the senior unit did Grenadiers carry a Leibfahne. This rotating leibfahne is a myth. The Jaeger battalions never carried flags and the Landwehr seem to have had spare Ordinarfahne, aside from the ones issued in Inner Austria. The Grenzers used the usual system, except that after 1807, all battalions appear to have carried one Ordinarfahne.

Hope this helps.

Jim

P.S. The website link at the bottom of the article is no longer in service.

I had the same question. Starting on 28mm Austrians. Thanks for the information. Cheers.

Don't lose sleep over it. There are several variables based on types of units and year. It's unlikely that all units followed all the rules all the time. And not all units had shakos in 1809…some still had helmets just because it took a while to supply all units, and because it was cheaper to keep serviceable helmets until they wore out.

As for flags, I'm not going to prepare multiple command stands for pre-1800, 1805, 1809, or 1812. I use one or two flags per battalion (except for jaegers..no flags for them) …no one has ever commented and they still look good.

I like flags too. My Austrians have one of each because it is *somewhat* historical and it looks cool.

This contains much useful information – I believe it was written by Dave Hollins – link

One flag per battalion, sorry.
Coincidentally, I once made a mistake and gave each battalion an ordinarfahne and a leibsfahn. It did look good.
That said, when I was recently flagging up hundreds of units for my Wagram project, I found myself on several occasions singing the praises of one-flag battalions.

From the linked article, I suspect these may have been taken via the Ulm capitulation, anyone have specific detail of Austrian units involved?

>> Four cavalry standards captured by the French in the 1805 campaign were of the 1769–1780 pattern as the cypher 'MT' (Empress Maria Theresa 1740–1780) is embroidered either side of the central shield on the eagle.[10]

**One of this pattern has recently been returned to the Army Museum in Vienna from the USA link (at the bottom).
(Photos on the site).

As I'm recreating the contra-corps from Austerlitz, would be interested to know the units who lost such standards. Several escaped from Ulm trap performed at Austerlitz,
Regards
dave

Well I use flags and the number of command figures to distinguish 1st, 2nd, 3rd battalions etc so if they improve the game aesthetics as well I say go for it.

Both flags for me. Just because

But then my cavalry also carry standards. So sue me 😉

It's just toys on the table for me. If historical accuracy is 100% your thing, then knock yourself out. But my toys are just representative, and I have to bath tub to get a game anyway, so I can pretend my battalion represents a whole regiment, so needs lots of flags…

If anybody is on Facebook I can send you piccies

Mine are 48 figures strong, and two flags sort of fits. If you are a 28mm guy who uses ten figures, the two flags may be too much.

YMMV

It was the stuff on Warflag and Wiki that has prompted me to ask – I'm looking for an 'out'.

I can get away with Eagles where there shouldn't be, because we know that a number of regiments either couldn't or wouldn't turn them in. But the Austrians presumably had more chance, as the battalions would have been in barracks, to retrieval of standards would have been easy.

Marc – I have 96 man units! Also being Austrian the uniform is white with white and white, and turnbacks aren't that obvious in 8ish mm. They need some colour. Also two flags on 6 bases balances, one would have to be off centre.

You make a good point about bath-tubbing- As I am doing FoG, the unit is the regiment, I suppose strictly half the bases should be flagged. When I do BP in cm measure, then it will be 3 bases to the unit, so I will have enough to give every line regiment a flag.

That's it – I'm double flagging. If ever I play BP in inch measurements then I'll just have to ignore the brain itch.

(post posting thought – How close would they have been on the field when 2 were being carried?)

Thanks all.

I haven't got my books at hand but I think standards for the heavy cavalry (Kurrassier and Dragoon regiments) is OK. It's the lights (Cheveaux Legers, Hussars and Uhlans) that didn't carry them. I may have remembered that completely wrong though.

Another thing is that the old standards were retained longer by the Hungarian infantry than the German, so Hungarians with the 1792 pattern and Germans with the 1806 pattern would be good for 1809. Hardly any 1804s were ever issued, maybe only one of each (Leib and Ordinar) to IR4. Again, I'm relying on my memory for this so feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.

There was definitely only one per battalion though and remember, even at 96 man battalions, one standard is still about 10 times too many :-(

Cheers,
John

I'm gonna throw this one in here:

Austrians operated as double-company divisions. So six-company battalion would have three-divisions – similarly heavy cavalry three-divisions, light cavalry four-divisions)

The infantry division would be the size of someone else's half-battalion, the cavalry divisions the size of someone else's regiment.

So: it'd make more sense to give each division a standard or flag.

This would then be very useful for bath-tubbing as each wargame division could be used as a battalion/regiment.

don't ask about sense, the Austrian battalions had in this period only 1 colour – if if makes sense or not, bath-tubbing is another case.

@ SHaT1984

General Major Alfred Krauss "1805 Der Feldzug von Ulm" has the following units as surrendered at Ulm (51 battalions and 18 1/4 squadrons):

Korps Riesch
FML Laudon/GM Genedegg
Infantry Regiment (IR) Riese 4 battalions
IR Erzherzog Ludwig 3 battalions
IR Froon 4 battalions
GM Auersperg
IR Erzherzog Karl 2 battalions
IR Auersperg 4 battalions
GM Ulm (Regimental grenadier battalions)
Erzherzog Karl
Froon
Auersperg
Josef Colloredo
GM Fresenel (Regimental grenadier battalions)
Manfredini
Hildburghausen
Kolowrat
Frelich
Kaiser
Erzherzog Franz Kurassiere Regiment 6 squadrons
Hohenzollern Kurassier Regiment 2 squadrons
Blankenstein Husaren Regiment 1/4 squadron

Korps Klenau
??
IR Kolowrat 4 battalions
IR Manfredini 4 battalions
??
IR Hildburghausen 4 battalions
IR Kaiser 4 battalions
GM Sticker
IR Erzherzog Rainer 4 battalions
IR Frehlich 4 battalions
GM Furst Liechtenstein
Tiroler Jager 1 battalion
Mack Kurassier Regiment 1 squadron
Hohenlohe Dragoner Regiment 2 squadrons
Schwarzenburg Uhlan Regiment 7 suadrons

Digby-Smith's "Napoleonic Data Book" says 26 colours captured with Austrians reporting 40 colours lost.

Its only going to be wrong if I use them as 6 base battalions. For FoG the units are regiments, effectively 1-2 bases to the battalion. If I use BP at cm measures then 3 stands are the battalion, so 1 flag per unit.

Its going to have to be one of those things wargames do when we invent time travel. Make sure Armies carry 2 standards, because its hard to centre a single flag in a wargames unit.

If wargamers could have that impact they'd make every tenth man carry a standard so that their ratios would be correct :-)

To the TARDIS!

Dont forget in 1809 Austrians formed up with the colour on the front right of the unit, not the centre, as is often seen on Wargames units.

Dont forget in 1809 Austrians formed up with the colour on the front right of the unit, not the centre, as is often seen on Wargames units.

I just looked at the plates of the 1807 Exerzierreglement which was in use for 1809 – there the colour is palced as usual in the center, from where do you have the information about front right?

I went with my senior colonels battalion who is normally mounted has the white flag and the others the yellow .The Landwehr I have have the old yellow flag.

At end of the day they are your models and If you want to have more flags then so be it. Don't impose rules on yourself that limit your enjoyment of this wonderful hobby of ours.

@vW

I have the 'Dienst-Reglement fuer die k.k. Infanterie' (Vienna, 1807) but it is text only. Do you have a link to a different document with the plates?

The Dienstreglement is different for the Exerzir Regelment,

I used this, thanks to our old friend Steven Smith

wrong link, this is in fact for cavalry – will see to find this about Infantry – ignore what the google headline says, just click on the pages and you will see that this is cavalry

link

so this is for infantry

link

Many thanks vW!

Friends, did I get it right that Austrain Uhlans didn't have neither regimental flags nor squadron flags?

My understanding is that heavy cavalry regiments carried all their standards in battle but that "most" light cavalry did not. So Kurassier and Dragoons yes, Hussars, Chevaulegers and Uhlans generally no.

Cheers,
John

>> but that "most" light cavalry did not.

ALL did not because they DID NOT EXIST =neither regimental flags nor squadron flags. PERIOD!
Although potentially in the clasee of 'gaming folklore', this one holds true.

The only standards issued to ANY Austrian light cavalty, as earnestly reported by Acerbi et al, were late period (1810+) ceremonial pieces for state parades etc. and never appeared in wartime battle units. This appears to be a copycat of the Russians who liked to reward units this way.

The matter of those earlier units whowere/became/reverted from Dragoons may be more confused. However, none were ever recorded as 'taken' AFAIK, so the above probably applies.

Despite model makers creating them, they are not appropriate unless you don't care, and will use them anyway. Me, I'm not making any. An extra officer and trumpeter is all that is needed.
cheers d

Thank you!

I'm not one to uncritically accept anything I see on Wikipedia, but when someone writes, "At least three [1804 pattern] standards were issued to the cavalry,[12] one for 7. Hussars and one for an unknown Hussar regiment", and the footnote refers to "'Katalog der Erzherzog Carl Ausstellung zur Jahrhundertfeier der Schlacht bei Aspern' Items 223/72-4." that strikes me as possibly credible.

Also, Rawkins includes a standard bearer from the 4th (La Tour) chevauleger in 1792 with an old looking swallow-tailed standard. He also lists regimental "standarte fuhreren" in the Hussar and Uhlan regiments.

Wise, in the Osprey "Flags of the Napoleonic Wars 2"states:

"Three standards of the 3rd Regiment of Light Dragoons, captured at Neswiecz on 20 September 1812 by the Russian Alexandria Hussars, appear to have been those given to the regiment by the Emperor Charles VI (1711-40)…" The 3rd (O'Reilly Chevaulegers were in the Grand Armee but the 3rd Knesevich) Dragoons were not (as far as I know),so perhaps it was a chevauleger regiment whose standards were lost.
Cheers,
John

Is there nothing better available, what say has Acerbi about this??

La Tour, though it was converted from Dragoon to Chevaulegers retained its Dragoon status in 1792, still wearing the green coat and a had (instead of the Kasket of the chvaulegers) and retained their standards.

Yes, it is possible that the dragoons that were converted to chevauleger had their standards withdrawn. But why should the light regiments still have standard bearers if they have no standards? Is it a purely ceremonial rank? Of course that's possible. I don't know the answers to these questions.

Personally, I have no intention of having any standard bearers in my Austrian Hussars or, when I eventually get around to them, Uhlans. I intend to use the Hussar standard bearers I have as ADCs. I wonder if the chevaulegers should be the same though, especially since the O'Reilly regiment *seem* to have had standards with them in Russia.

Cheers,
John

>>Is it a purely ceremonial rank?
Yes.

Ascerbi seems to be very clear on this.
Prior periods/ eras don't count.
It was changed; they were withdrawn etc.

I don't know where that source is from, but it's never made it to the mainstream.
And is perhaps entirely likely to have been a 'plan' rather than an action. Karl was full of those.
d

I also checked Osprey, well just in case.
Haythornthwaite again quotes losses without specific detail; refers to K.Over book only for reference to the 1814 'Honourary' colour to an hussar regt.
Same cited by Ascerbi, shows I think the scarcity of any others.

Yes two decades ago I put together my [1805] O'Reileys #3 Chevau-Legere, and yes, with standard. However I've not done so for my hussars. Tant pis!
cheers

I only mentioned the La Tour Regiment to make the point that the standards did originally exist. They were meant to be left in the depot but the incident in Russia suggests this may not always have happened. I haven't been able to find any other information on this incident.

I'm not sure what was meant by "And is perhaps entirely likely to have been a 'plan' rather than an action. Karl was full of those." I get that EHK had lots of plans that were never implemented. But what was "likely to have been a 'plan' rather than an action"? That's the bit I was unclear about.

Does anyone know anything about "'Katalog der Erzherzog Carl Ausstellung zur Jahrhundertfeier der Schlacht bei Aspern' Items 223/72-4." I couldn't find anything more about it.

Cheers,
John

John

Looks like there is a copy of this catalogue at the National Art Library at the V&A in London. Unfortunately closed at the moment but should be able to get a look at it in the future (next year?). I'll add it to my to-do list!

Cheers

Jim

I await the news with bated breath!

Cheers,
John

Catalogue of The Archduke Carl Exhibition on the Centenary of the Battle of Aspern 1909
Catalogue of the Archduke Carl Exhibition on the Centenary of the Battle of Aspern, Vienna 1909, April-June. Druck bei Holzhausen, Wien 1909. 8°, solid cardboard cover probably with artificial leather cover with embossed "16", XX and 514 pages, cover rubbed and back with worn area (about 1x1cm), otherwise beautiful.
Introductory texts are printed up to page 33, followed by explanations of the individual exhibits. It is noteworthy that the lenders are each listed by name. Particularly exciting to read are the texts on the numerous soil finds shown at that time.
examples:
No. 39, p.39: "Kanonenkugel vom Schlachtfelde von Eggmühl, 22 April 1809, gefunden in einem Baume bei Buchhausen nächst Eggmühl (Historischer Verein für die Oberpfalz und für Regensburg)".

No. 73, S43/44: "Kuriertasche des im Jahre 1809 bei Amstetten angefangens Kuriers Nr. 466 Napoleons I. Made of leather, folded in half, one of which can be locked inside by chains. The number embroidered once on the outside and inside. On the outside two brass panels with the engraved inscriptions "Dépêches de Sa Majesté Napoléon Empereur et roi" and "Depart de Paris pour le quartier général" … (Sammlung Dr. Albert u. Karl Figdor, Wien)".

No. 114, p. 47: "Attestat für den Unterleutnant im 4. Bataillon der Erzherzog Carl-Legion, Johann Haissinger, vom 24. Juli 1809 über die durch den durch den beiden Tage der Schlacht bei Wagram bewirkte Rettung der Fahne. (Karl Haissinger, Smichow)".

link

Also purchasable via Abebooks: link

If you have a Babel Hathi Trust account link

Description of the exhibition in "Verein für Historische Waffenkunde [Editor]
Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde: Organ des Vereins für Historische Waffenkunde — 5.1909-1911" link

Unable to edit above, but have now glanced at the Babel Hathi version. It is clearly a list of exhibits with some brief descriptions. There are few illustrations.

Page 223 entries 72 – 74. Drei Kavallerie -Standarten aus der Zeit 1804 bis 1806 . Nr. 71 für deutsche (Liechtensteinhusaren Nr. 7, vom Jahre der Errichtung 1801 ), Nr. 73 für ungarische (U1.-Reg . Nr. 11) Kavallerie. (K . u. k . Heeresmuseum .)

Despite model makers creating them, they are not appropriate unless you don't care, and will use them anyway.

Some of us follow the philosophy that if a unit had a flag at any point in the era it is OK to give it to your troops throughout the era. If a unit kept a flag in the depot and only hauled it out for honorary occasions, it is OK for the unit to be depicted with the flag in the field. It is the same philosophy that says it is OK for troops to be depicted on the battlefield in parade dress uniforms.

Interesting.
Nr. 71 für deutsche (Liechtensteinhusaren Nr. 7, vom Jahre der Errichtung 1801)

So this is a standard for the Liechtenstein Hussars, but what is meant by "from the year of establishment 1801?" The 7th Hussars had been around longer than that. Is it when they were issued this standard? So a 1792 version?

Nr. 73 für ungarische (U1.-Reg . Nr. 11) Kavallerie. (K . u. k . Heeresmuseum .)

And this one (11th (Szeckler) Hussars)? It's in the museum in Vienna? I haven't been there since 1985 but I think I'd have noticed it if it was on display :-)

@Erzherzog Johann,

Re 7th Husaren they and the 5th Husaren were formed from the surplus divisions in 1798 when the existing Regiments of Husaren were reduced to 6 squadrons each. I think the 1801 reference is to when Furst Johannes Lichtenstein became the Inhaber, prior to that it is shown as "Vakat"