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"Austrian Flags per Battalion" Topic


21 Posts

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675 hits since 23 Mar 2020
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Last Hussar23 Mar 2020 6:54 a.m. PST

During 1809 did they DEFINATELY only carry one per Bn? Or is this like the French "They all handed in their standards(except for the ones that didn't)?

Reason being
1) I like flags
2) My units are painted as 6 bases for FoG regiments/Brigades, but I will also be splitting into 2x3 bases for BP Bns.
3) Did I mention I like to see flags?

Last Hussar23 Mar 2020 6:55 a.m. PST

During 1809 did they DEFINATELY only carry one per Bn? Or is this like the French "They all handed in their standards(except for the ones that didn't)?

Reason being
1) I like flags
2) My units are painted as 6 bases for FoG regiments/Brigades, but I will also be splitting into 2x3 bases for BP Bns.
3) Did I mention I like to see flags?

von Winterfeldt23 Mar 2020 7:02 a.m. PST

go for 1792 – 1800, then they had two colours per battalion.

Prussians – 5

Last Hussar23 Mar 2020 7:58 a.m. PST

But I'm doing 1809. My French are in shako not bicorne.

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP23 Mar 2020 8:03 a.m. PST

From the Warflag's NapFlag section ion the Austrian Army: link

Then it all changed again in 1808 to one flag per battallion again. Nevertheless, aside from 1805, the Grenadier battalions which only formed up in wartime just picked up one spare Ordinarfahne, usually but not necessarily from the senior parent regiment depot. Only in 1805, when each regiment had its own Grenadier battalion as the senior unit did Grenadiers carry a Leibfahne. This rotating leibfahne is a myth. The Jaeger battalions never carried flags and the Landwehr seem to have had spare Ordinarfahne, aside from the ones issued in Inner Austria. The Grenzers used the usual system, except that after 1807, all battalions appear to have carried one Ordinarfahne.

Hope this helps.

Jim

P.S. The website link at the bottom of the article is no longer in service.

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP23 Mar 2020 8:29 a.m. PST

I had the same question. Starting on 28mm Austrians. Thanks for the information. Cheers.

raylev323 Mar 2020 2:02 p.m. PST

Don't lose sleep over it. There are several variables based on types of units and year. It's unlikely that all units followed all the rules all the time. And not all units had shakos in 1809…some still had helmets just because it took a while to supply all units, and because it was cheaper to keep serviceable helmets until they wore out.

As for flags, I'm not going to prepare multiple command stands for pre-1800, 1805, 1809, or 1812. I use one or two flags per battalion (except for jaegers..no flags for them) …no one has ever commented and they still look good.

Desert Fox23 Mar 2020 8:47 p.m. PST

I like flags too. My Austrians have one of each because it is *somewhat* historical and it looks cool.

Paul Demet Supporting Member of TMP23 Mar 2020 11:24 p.m. PST

This contains much useful information – I believe it was written by Dave Hollins – link

forwardmarchstudios23 Mar 2020 11:39 p.m. PST

One flag per battalion, sorry.
Coincidentally, I once made a mistake and gave each battalion an ordinarfahne and a leibsfahn. It did look good.
That said, when I was recently flagging up hundreds of units for my Wagram project, I found myself on several occasions singing the praises of one-flag battalions.

SHaT198424 Mar 2020 1:47 a.m. PST

From the linked article, I suspect these may have been taken via the Ulm capitulation, anyone have specific detail of Austrian units involved?

>> Four cavalry standards captured by the French in the 1805 campaign were of the 17691780 pattern as the cypher 'MT' (Empress Maria Theresa 17401780) is embroidered either side of the central shield on the eagle.[10]

**One of this pattern has recently been returned to the Army Museum in Vienna from the USA link (at the bottom).
(Photos on the site).

As I'm recreating the contra-corps from Austerlitz, would be interested to know the units who lost such standards. Several escaped from Ulm trap performed at Austerlitz,
Regards
dave

4th Cuirassier24 Mar 2020 4:44 a.m. PST

Well I use flags and the number of command figures to distinguish 1st, 2nd, 3rd battalions etc so if they improve the game aesthetics as well I say go for it.

Marc the plastics fan24 Mar 2020 5:37 a.m. PST

Both flags for me. Just because

But then my cavalry also carry standards. So sue me 😉

It's just toys on the table for me. If historical accuracy is 100% your thing, then knock yourself out. But my toys are just representative, and I have to bath tub to get a game anyway, so I can pretend my battalion represents a whole regiment, so needs lots of flags…

If anybody is on Facebook I can send you piccies

Mine are 48 figures strong, and two flags sort of fits. If you are a 28mm guy who uses ten figures, the two flags may be too much.

YMMV

Last Hussar24 Mar 2020 9:20 a.m. PST

It was the stuff on Warflag and Wiki that has prompted me to ask I'm looking for an 'out'.

I can get away with Eagles where there shouldn't be, because we know that a number of regiments either couldn't or wouldn't turn them in. But the Austrians presumably had more chance, as the battalions would have been in barracks, to retrieval of standards would have been easy.

Marc I have 96 man units! Also being Austrian the uniform is white with white and white, and turnbacks aren't that obvious in 8ish mm. They need some colour. Also two flags on 6 bases balances, one would have to be off centre.

You make a good point about bath-tubbing- As I am doing FoG, the unit is the regiment, I suppose strictly half the bases should be flagged. When I do BP in cm measure, then it will be 3 bases to the unit, so I will have enough to give every line regiment a flag.

That's it I'm double flagging. If ever I play BP in inch measurements then I'll just have to ignore the brain itch.

(post posting thought How close would they have been on the field when 2 were being carried?)

Thanks all.

John Edmundson26 Mar 2020 1:41 a.m. PST

I haven't got my books at hand but I think standards for the heavy cavalry (Kurrassier and Dragoon regiments) is OK. It's the lights (Cheveaux Legers, Hussars and Uhlans) that didn't carry them. I may have remembered that completely wrong though.

Another thing is that the old standards were retained longer by the Hungarian infantry than the German, so Hungarians with the 1792 pattern and Germans with the 1806 pattern would be good for 1809. Hardly any 1804s were ever issued, maybe only one of each (Leib and Ordinar) to IR4. Again, I'm relying on my memory for this so feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.

There was definitely only one per battalion though and remember, even at 96 man battalions, one standard is still about 10 times too many :-(

Cheers,
John

Stoppage27 Mar 2020 4:55 a.m. PST

I'm gonna throw this one in here:

Austrians operated as double-company divisions. So six-company battalion would have three-divisions – similarly heavy cavalry three-divisions, light cavalry four-divisions)

The infantry division would be the size of someone else's half-battalion, the cavalry divisions the size of someone else's regiment.

So: it'd make more sense to give each division a standard or flag.

This would then be very useful for bath-tubbing as each wargame division could be used as a battalion/regiment.

von Winterfeldt27 Mar 2020 5:45 a.m. PST

don't ask about sense, the Austrian battalions had in this period only 1 colour – if if makes sense or not, bath-tubbing is another case.

Prince of Essling28 Mar 2020 2:43 p.m. PST

@ SHaT1984

General Major Alfred Krauss "1805 Der Feldzug von Ulm" has the following units as surrendered at Ulm (51 battalions and 18 1/4 squadrons):

Korps Riesch
FML Laudon/GM Genedegg
Infantry Regiment (IR) Riese 4 battalions
IR Erzherzog Ludwig 3 battalions
IR Froon 4 battalions
GM Auersperg
IR Erzherzog Karl 2 battalions
IR Auersperg 4 battalions
GM Ulm (Regimental grenadier battalions)
Erzherzog Karl
Froon
Auersperg
Josef Colloredo
GM Fresenel (Regimental grenadier battalions)
Manfredini
Hildburghausen
Kolowrat
Frelich
Kaiser
Erzherzog Franz Kurassiere Regiment 6 squadrons
Hohenzollern Kurassier Regiment 2 squadrons
Blankenstein Husaren Regiment 1/4 squadron

Korps Klenau
??
IR Kolowrat 4 battalions
IR Manfredini 4 battalions
??
IR Hildburghausen 4 battalions
IR Kaiser 4 battalions
GM Sticker
IR Erzherzog Rainer 4 battalions
IR Frehlich 4 battalions
GM Furst Liechtenstein
Tiroler Jager 1 battalion
Mack Kurassier Regiment 1 squadron
Hohenlohe Dragoner Regiment 2 squadrons
Schwarzenburg Uhlan Regiment 7 suadrons

Digby-Smith's "Napoleonic Data Book" says 26 colours captured with Austrians reporting 40 colours lost.

Last Hussar29 Mar 2020 8:42 p.m. PST

Its only going to be wrong if I use them as 6 base battalions. For FoG the units are regiments, effectively 1-2 bases to the battalion. If I use BP at cm measures then 3 stands are the battalion, so 1 flag per unit.

Its going to have to be one of those things wargames do when we invent time travel. Make sure Armies carry 2 standards, because its hard to centre a single flag in a wargames unit.

John Edmundson30 Mar 2020 1:22 a.m. PST

If wargamers could have that impact they'd make every tenth man carry a standard so that their ratios would be correct :-)

Last Hussar30 Mar 2020 11:43 p.m. PST

To the TARDIS!

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