"Does anybody seriously buy from Grand Manner???" Topic

A few years ago I got one of his ancient period merchant ships when he still sold unpainted resin. Very cool ship and excellent detail, and pretty good prices even with the shipping from England to the U.S.

When I began my 28mm AWI armies and terrain a year or so ago I was considering getting some of Grand Manner's buildings. But I ended up going with Hovels and J&R which have excellent unpainted 28mm AWI period buildings.

I was also considering getting some earthworks from Grand Manner. But thank the f'n Gods I discovered Acheson Creations which makes a whole range of 18th Century earthworks stuff at amazingly good prices. You can literally get like TEN times the amount of earthworks from Acheson for the price of ONE like foot long section from Grand Manner. Acheson sells pieces earthworks in sets of two for $14.95 USD which gives you about 24" of earthworks. Get three of those sets and you've got about six feet of earthworks for $45 USD which are not difficult to paint to a wargaming standard. Six feet of earthworks from Grand Manner? A cool $300 USD give or take.

What the actual BLEEP???

My question is this: Who actually in their right mind still buys stuff from Grand Manner? Please don't take offense to that. I'm not saying Grand Manner's stuff is bad. It's actually the opposite. Their stuff looks pretty amazing.

But who on earth at that company thought it was a good idea to transition over to painted resin only or at least primarily painted resin??? And who on earth in their marketing minds came up with those painted prices??? I mean seriously, for most AWI buildings you're talking a base coat and then a dry brush over it, maybe an additional wash.

Where on earth is the justification in charging like $200 USD U.S. for a single small building painted to a "wargaming standard"? There's even AWI buildings that are upwards of $250 USD and even $300 USD for a SINGLE building. And then Hartwell's Tavern at the bargain price of about $750.00 USD U.S. when painted at a wargaming level. The collector's standard painted version is over a THOUSAND U.S. dollars.

When I went to his site I seriously thought that his painted prices were misprints or that somebody hacked his site.

Again, I'm not disparaging or questioning the quality of his stuff.

I am just asking in all seriousness who exactly is his customer demographic? Millionaire gamers who just order stuff en mass when they want to do a new time period and they just drop a few thousand dollars to get a 28mm AWI village, LOL?

I just don't understand how he's still in business. Unless he has like a permanent, dedicated short list of wealthy gamers who buy from him on a regular basis.

Please…please…please don't tell me that anyone out there actually paid $1,000 USD for a painted 28mm tavern. I mean, I can show how to paint a competitor's tavern to that standard in about an hour and a half!

Help me out with this.

His customer demographic isn't you. That should be the end of it.

I've never understood the anger at pricing, for luxury goods like toy soldiers or terrain. He apparently has a successful business in a niche hobby that is full of cheapskates. Good for him.

Cheapskates?????? Seriously, you just can't be a traditional miser without someone slagging you off!

Lucius,

Why the vitriol and anger? Yeah, I get it. Of course I'm not his demographic! That's because I'm not gullible or stupid if you want to be frank about it. His stuff is out of my league…oh dear! I had better slink away like the peasant I am and leave the real wargaming to those of more refined taste than myself. Give me a break.

If you're trying to suggest that I'm poor or that I am some sort of "cheapskate" for not wanting to pay $1,000 USD for a 28mm tavern that I could paint myself in a couple hours then I think you really do need to adjust your attitude.

I highly doubt many people would call me a cheapskate for having better things to spend $1,000 USD on. Such as..oh I don't know, like two entire 28mm AWI armies?!?!? But I digress.

As someone who as I SAID did buy stuff from him previously I think you totally misunderstood the point of my post. I WOULD buy more stuff from him if his prices were located somewhere on planet earth and not up in the atmosphere.

Unpainted 28mm resin is not a "luxury good". Diamond rings are luxury goods. Wanting to put a village on a table is not a luxury. It's a hobby.

I am not a cheapskate. I'm rational. And I don't appreciate the snarkiness.

Maybe the grand manner owner is an artist and doesnt want his items gracing just anyone's table? Perhaps his creations are for those savvy few who want to experience le vrai haut de gamme.

And like with most art, there are those who can appreciate a Degas and those who prefer the velvet painting of dogs playing poker.

Maybe it's a matter of one's wargaming audience? After all, if you game with people who eat greasy food with their fingers and speak with their mouths full, then you would hardly want to expose your Grand Manner collection to such…persons .

On the other hand, if one is gaming with the Royal family, one might want to put out the good set of silverware, as it were.
For all we know, right now, The Queen herself may be ordering 28mm British troops to retake the colonies against a backdrop of the finest Grand Manner terrain items. I can see her saying "Off with their heads!"

I knew a guy who hated some of the fanciest, creamy brie and much preferred Velveeta out of the can. It's not a case of better or worse but sometimes it's a matter of "keeping it real."

I just took a peek – wow! – awesome stuff!

I once had the privilege of playing with a Collector's set of 28mm Napoleonics at:

Legendary Wargames

I cannot afford to collect at this level and I salute the very generous collector who let us play with his/her toys.

Welcome to the free market system. I'm always surprised at what people spend money on. It must be nice to have that much disposable income or credit limits. Actually the latter would be bad. ;)

I'll let others buy those models and then gladly play with them for free. Lol.

Baranovich, at the risk of being assaulted, I completely agree with you. I am cheap when it comes to spending on myself. I will always try to build my own terrain and structures. Sure, they are not Grand Manner quality, but then I play mostly solo, so I only have myself to please. When the occasion rises that need something that I can't build myself, I will look for deals. I recently purchased a stone bridge for Napoleonic games, bridges being one of those things near impossible to make from scratch. I laugh when I see crazy prices on simple bits of terrain like fences, stone walls, sandbags and such. Those I will always make from scratch.

You can probably get them on Ebay for $2,000. USD

Grand Manner used to be expensive and more so with postage, but sort of affordable if you saved for them. Now they are ridiculously, over the top expensive with prohibitive postage. I wouldn't buy them now even if I had the money. Of course that's easy to say since I don't have that kind of money.

Grand Manner's products can be somewhat fragile as well. One misplaced sneeze or curious cat can leave your $500 USD investment in pieces on the floor.

But like other commentators have pointed out, Grand Manner serves a small but apparently affluent market. So does Rolls Royce and Ferrari. If he can run a profitable company with such a business model, more power to him. If not, his business model will have to change.

I've not purchased anything seriously or non-seriously from them. Then again I'm cheap.

Wait, Dogs Playing Poker wasn't Degas?

I've been had!

Baranovich, at the risk of being assaulted, I completely agree with you. I am cheap when it comes to spending on myself. I will always try to build my own terrain and structures. Sure, they are not Grand Manner quality, but then I play mostly solo, so I only have myself to please.

Well, then you have star appeal. If you recall in the film "Le Diner de Cons", one of the leads made just about any structure imaginable out of match sticks:

link

An idea that seems to have caught fire:

link

On a more serious note, as a solo gamer, what periods do you game and what sort of command/control or AI sequences do you use to drive your "opponent"?

Mini pigs, I don't want to hijack the thread. Happy to talk via email.

Nick, nnascati@gmail.com

I used to buy quite a bit from him when he offered unpainted pieces (of course, many of them have yet to to be painted ) and am still considering picking some of his smaller pieces that are available in the raw resin to flesh out a few projects. His prices were always on the higher end, but the quality was good -- and he did run the occasional sale which helped. His postage was high but pieces were well wrapped and sent via a courier (UPS, if I recall).

In any event, he seems to being doing well enough… according to his website:

"Due to the constant volume of orders coming in I have been unable to bring the waiting time down past 8/10 weeks. The shop will be closed to new orders for 6 weeks so that I can catch up and get your orders out asap. I apologize for any inconvenience this may course during this very busy period and look forward your orders once I've caught up."

I personally own a lot of Grand Manner items and bought them before he changed his business model from selling unpainted to painted resin.
As a painter I truly wish he would reconsider and go back to selling unpainted terrain. Oh well. I highly recommend Sarissa and well of course, Footsore Miniatures. :).

Cheap plug.

Tim S.

MiniPigs, you are American and have seen "Le diner de cons".
There is still hope for the world….

Baranovich – anything that has to do with wargaming is a luxury good. Period. These are toys. Toys are luxury goods.

His prices are none of your business, and your desire to convict his customer base in the tiny court of opinion on TMP is weird and irrational. Someone, somewhere, is buying his stuff and enjoying it, and that seems to upset you. Why do you care?

It was a great movie but I have a French parent so I dont know if that's cheating or not?

Although, just watched "P'tit Quinquin" and those Norman accents were hard to follow.

@Lucius you seem to be reading a awful lot into Baranovich's posts. I don't see any condemnation of Grand Manor's customers.

Please…please…please don't tell me that anyone out there actually paid $1,000.00 USD USD for a painted 28mm tavern. I mean, I can show how to paint a competitor's tavern to that standard in about an hour and a half!

Help me out with this.

Then you should be painting buildings, undercutting Grand Manor and still making serious money.
You can't really complain about them making money from it themselves. They've been around for years so it's obviously working form them.

My recollection is that a few years ago he suspended the painting service, and now (because I myself have not checked his website in a long while) he only sells painted. I think the above posters are correct—he figured out he had enough of an affluent niche customer base that the most logical thing to do was to drop the unpainted and sell only expensive painted terrain.

I agree the prices are silly, but I also think the vitriol at spending money on the hobby can get over the top. Gwyneth Paltrow makes a mint with her "Goop" brand selling $30 USD shorts for $500 USD and $5,000 USD tickets to meet her at spa conferences. For a board membership that skews conservative, there is far too much anti-capitalist rhetoric around here.

I have purchased 2 Grand Manner buildings – a townhouse and a tavern (not the Hartwell Tavern), painted to wargame standards. They were special purchases actually Xmas gifts for 2 consecutive years. I am very pleased with them and have used them several times in AWI games. Mostly I buy MDF kits, build and paint them myself. But the Grand Manner are very nice.

For a board membership that skews conservative, there is far too much anti-capitalist rhetoric around here.

You touch on an excellent point here. Many Americans think they are economically middle class and entrepreneurial when most of them are working poor (includes bottom rungs on the "middle class" ladder), wage slaves. You have a situation where a lot of Americans either secretly or unknowingly want socialism but consider it a dirty word. It's mostly because "middle class" is seen as a ticket to being considered a valuable, well adjusted, productive member of society. You know the mental image, where we all march in step to Yankee Doodle Dandy, wearing wigs like the founders?

In any case, socialism for me and capitalism for everyone else; the result is many fine capitalists think they should get things for free.

Having said that, Baranovich has a point. I regularly throw money at merchants in this space and I dont really get better service or products. Sometimes I do but it hasnt got anything to do with the price of the item or the amount I spend; it's just the character of the merchant I am dealing with.

Further, this hobby is a functional hobby, things get touched, banged, used, in short, consumed. It really isnt a "display only" hobby which means there's such a thing as suitability of purpose and also "good enough" for gaming. So we dont need a Bellini or a Fellini, we just need a beater item.

Also, this is a hobby where the merchants are trying to constantly cast themselves as one of the guys with thin margins who are just trying to make the hobby a little better. that's why it is a bit jarring to see people selling things for high prices. Few of us think this is supposed to be a sector where it is highly commercial.

We use Grand Manner buildings in our gaming group. One of the guys in our group loves them. Yes, they are expensive and if you include postage many of the painted pieces cost over a $1,000. USD But they are exquisite and if you choose his highest level of paint jobs, the pieces are absolutely gorgeous.

As a side note, it's not me personally that's buying them painted, I only bought the unpainted versions up until he switched to selling only painted versions but I do get the benefit of having them on the gaming table.

"The people who buy Grand Manner are the same people who think a 2020 Lexus is superior to a 2004 Corolla. Who the hell are you to tell me I'm a fool for purchasing what I feel is a superior product? Maybe it isn't, but that's MY decision. Not yours!"

Miniature manufacturers sometimes change from selling unpainted castings or moldings to painted versions of the same thing when their molds start to go bad.

The paint hides a lot of blemishes!

Interesting to read all the different feedback, much appreciated.

I seriously was not seeking to start any sort of flame war or philosophical debate over social/economic demographics, etc. And I certainly did not intend to disparage Grand Manner's business from an ethical or quality perspective. He has the right to charge whatever prices he wants. And if people buy it, well that's their right to do so.

Can we just all agree that his prices are bats**t crazy expensive for most of us and that it's simply not worth it or sane to pay those prices for that type of wargaming item?

I've got a long list of things I'm willing to spend $1,000 USD on – but I must tell you that a very averagely dry brushed 28mm tavern is pretty far down on that list! No actually it's not on the list at all, lol.

@Baranovich

I have little sympathy for this. Why do you need a consensus on whether his prices are appropriate or not? If you dont have the money or are a cheapskate or just dont like what he is charging, isnt that enough? What is the added value of everyone else ganging up on this business?

Also, why dont you like discussions about economic and social demographics? Do they make you uncomfortable? It seems that you were OK talking about them when it was narrowly crafted to fit your comfort zone.

@MiniPigs,

You're not understanding me.

I am not looking for sympathy, like I'm pining to be able to buy this guy's stuff but just can't so my wargaming life is just not complete…lol.

What's with this "cheapskate" name calling? Would you buy a car that's only actually worth $20,000 USD but pay $80,000 USD for it because the guy does really, REALLY nice chrome on the hubcaps? Because that's what is happening here.

The point is that his work isn't worth those prices. In any rational realm. Not worth it. It's not about my lack of being able to "afford" them. I also can't afford to buy a private jet. And neither can you. That's not a reflection of my or your station in life. It's simply pointing out that most people can't afford private jets.

I don't NEED this guy's stuff. I've got 28mm AWI buildings that I painted myself. I would have LIKED to have been able to buy a few additional items, some of his stuff unpainted so I could paint it on my own. In fact I paint buildings better than this guy does. His prices for what he does is LUDICROUS. I think it's time to stop being nice about this and just conclude this the way it needs to be concluded.

I didn't create this thread as an appeal to feel sorry for me because I can't afford his prices. It was created as a consumer advocate post merely pointing the insanity of what he's charging.

Just call him what he is. A grossly overpriced painting service disguised as a site that sells buildings for wargaming.

I just looked at the News page on his site. Now apparently, his shop is currently closed because he's been so busy and so backed up with orders he needs to stop taking new orders so he can catch up. 8 to 10 week wait on orders apparently. I cannot imagine for the life of me how on earth those prices generate enough business to create an actual backlog of orders. But hey, good for him.

If you've got the money to pay these prices for this kind of stuff, then awesome. You've got amounts of disposable cash that I simply do not have. More power to you.

But HEY, if you're looking for a bargain on his site – there's the Hartwell Tavern/Guilford Courthouse combo DEAL! You get six buildings in 28mm scale, painted for your convenience…for the low,low price of…ready? 1,146 British Pounds (or about $1,350.00 USD U.S. dollars)

For SIX buildings. $1,350. USD Yeah I must be cheap for not thinking that's a reasonable price. To use in 28mm wargames. This guy took the concept of GW price gouging and decided to take it to a PhD level.

Here's the link in case you want to take advantage of this amazing wargaming bundle:

link

WOW!!! What a deal!!!

What did P.T. Barnum say about a sucker being born every minute? :)

As the ad for Cheapo Airlines says: "There's nothing wrong with being cheap."

We dont like lots of prices for things that we want but that doesn't mean we need to constantly point them out as loudly as we can in order to start a protest to see if we can get a company to lower their prices. If you had any skill as a negotiator, you could've initiated a private conversation with the owner to see if you could strike a personal discount. I am astonished at the lack of business acumen I see around here, truly astonished.

Additionally, Maybe he doesnt want to make more than one piece per year. Maybe he is the Michaelangelo of terrain. In any case, if his prices are so outrageous, he will go out of business.

I've seen plenty of merchants in this hobby run their businesses like complete garbage; with or without high prices. No matter what people think, this isnt a true, stand alone industry in terms of supply and demand, rather it's a whim and taste driven market. Hobbyists buy things because it pleases them and no other reason.

I'm starting to wonder why Baranovich really has such a downer on GM. Why be so critical of an apparently successful one-man company in our niche hobby industry? What point is he trying to prove?

Baranovich,

I agree with you that Grand Manner's pricing is on the high side of the market, where I disagree is when you say "The point is that his work isn't worth those prices. In any rational realm. Not worth it" as if that is fact. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Value is subjective -- this is why there are some art works that I wouldn't take if offered them for free, but others would pay large sums of money for them. It is a matter of percieved value by the buyer. This explains why he is so busy that he has to shut down (a point I noted in my post last week) -- there are people who value his work . The same holds true for miniatures -- some people use painting services to get their miniatures painted and can pay a pretty penny for them. Some may think they are crazy, but if they are happy, more power to them.

Moreover, you note that he is charging $1,350 USD for six buildings. I just went to Miniature Building Authority's page and you can spend pretty much the same amount for six painted buildings there (in their Harbor Town range). I have buildings from both MBA and GM and, in my opinion, the GM castings and painting are superior. Others may like MBA more and I don't have a problem with anyone who is able and willing to pay for them.

If someone wants very nice terrain on their table and is able to pay those prices, then the value is there or if someone wants to play with really gorgeous miniatures and is happy to pay a talented artist to paint them, good for them. Likewise, if someone enjoys using MDF kits or scratch-building terrain, or enjoys painting miniatures and is happy with the results, that is all that counts.

Free market.. don't like the prices don't buy. I like the buildings but not when I don't have the option of painting them myself. That is my objection.

If he can make a good living from this more power to him. I was unhappy to see unpainted buildings pulled but he has a tendancy to change policies when the time warrants him to drum up business. We'll see if he brings that back at some point in the future

Only a nutter would pay that price . He's always been a moody geezer.
I bet he hardly sells anything and he's most probably couldn't give a toss.
There good but not worth it.
I can get better one off hand made one off scratch built buildings far cheaper.
I know a few top end gamers and they would find it ridiculous to pay those prices when you can get better elsewhere.

@MinimPigs probably wasting your time mate….."You cannot reason with a Tiger when your head is in it's mouth!"

Terry +1 on all five of your points.

Interesting thread, with some ridiculous vitriol and attacks from the start. I've had a look at both the MBA and GM sites and prices for both seem to actually take into account labour, producion and processing costs for painting items in home countries rather than outsourcing. The fact that many companies are run as a sideline skews prices and sets expectations which can be unrealistic.

Terry and Doctor X don't think they're worth those prices, but it's all relative, especially when it comes to a hobby. There are those who would be appalled at people 'wasting money' on toy soldiers at our age. As for the other points, lots of anecdotes, supposition and judgements on others. If anyone wants to explain why it's 'wrong' to pay these prices in a free country please explain.

If we're speculating why GM doesn't offer unpainted resin though, the following thoughts come to mind:

1. There are lots of people selling unpainted resin and MDF buildings, so I (GM) probably need a niche.

2. large-scale resin pieces tend to target a certain demographic anyway (weight/fragility), so my market is already smaller than it was, particularly since MDF came out.

3. if I'm a solo operation then my time is limited. Selling unpainted resin will probably be at a lower margin than painted so I need to sell lots. Point 2 is an issue though and maybe I prefer sitting in my home office painting unique designs to messing around with dirty moulds and having to find more buyers through advertising and going to shows.

4. therefore, my painted products (which I need to sell fewer of) provide both a decent return and mean I can spend my time focusing on what I enjoy in my work. Win-win for both me and the people who are happy enough to pay my prices. (Heck, maybe they also pay people to paint their figures too, as they're cash rich-time poor or just don't like painting and save up).

5. finally, if I'm charging a price which is on the higher end for painted products, I don't want badly painted versions of my work out there, particularly if some viewers assume that I've painted them myself.

Now, I could be way off base with that thought process as I don't know GM, but it doesn't seem that irrational and more likely than a manufacturer cutting off their nose to spite their face and sitting at home with no orders.

I think many have missed the focus of the original question. Who would pay such prices for the product? What is GM's demographic niche?

I found comments like "it is a free market…." misses the point of the original posting. It is true that people can decide for themselves what the value of something is. That is what is means to be part of a free market. It is also true that in such a society it is totally reasonable to question, out loud, the value that others assign to something.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about this. I paint well and painting figures well is a fairly high skill generally IMHO. I can never get the true value of what I think my work is worth nor would I pay that much for someone else to paint for me at that quality. Thus the dilemma!

Marcus, the focus in the OP seems to be that Baranovich wanted to buy an item in a different format to that being offered. As I explained, there could be quite valid reasons for painted only (and the accompanying price), but instead of asking for them or why painted prices might be so high compared to some other manufacturers he decided to start by attacking GM and those who do buy from him.

It's perfectly reasonable to question the worth of anything, although given this is a hobby relying on discretionary spending and which is rammed full of people with more stuff piled up than they'll ever paint or play with, I haven't yet seen a big push to shame wargamers into selling off things they don't need. You want to say people are wargaming wrongly because they spend more than you or in different ways? Better take that lead mountain out of your own cupboard first and dial down comments like:

"Who actually in their right mind still buys stuff from Grand Manner? Please don't take offense to that."

"Where on earth is the justification in charging like $200 USD USD U.S. for a single small building painted to a "wargaming standard"?"

"Of course I'm not his demographic! That's because I'm not gullible or stupid if you want to be frank about it"

"Just call him what he is. A grossly overpriced painting service disguised as a site that sells buildings for wargaming."

Then this seemed a reasonable response, maybe Baranovich had regretted firing off so many abusive references:

"And I certainly did not intend to disparage Grand Manner's business from an ethical or quality perspective. He has the right to charge whatever prices he wants. And if people buy it, well that's their right to do so."

but was immediately followed by:

"Can we just all agree that his prices are bats**t crazy expensive for most of us and that it's simply not worth it or sane to pay those prices for that type of wargaming item?"

Baranovich wanted consensus on his personal opinion that there's something wrong with people buying/selling pieces at that price. He didn't get it. The free market comparison is important – if GM had a monopoly then I'd be more sympathetic, but there are hundreds of terrain manufacturers and you can always scratch build. If someone is spending more on their hobby than they can afford, I'm pretty sure they'll spend it somewhere and at least GM should hold their value better than lead.

Why might some people fall into his demographic though? Probably one or more of the following:

- rarity: they want to own pieces which have been indiividually produced for them.
- conspicuous consumption: they want to show off how much they've spent (although trying to impress people would would apply to a lot of the hobby).
- aesthetics: if I've spent money on a figure painter because I like time/ability to turn out miniature masterpieces then I'd want my terrain to be of a similar standard.
- there might be some wargamers with vast amounts to spend to something nice with little thought, although I suspect they're not the majority.

Are his prices higher than most are prepared to spend? I'm sure they are. That doesn't make those who do irrational or crazy. Are his goods over-priced? Apparently not, so long as there's a market. They certainly see the worth of them, which is the salient point.
Do his prices keep people out of the hobby? Not that I can see.

Look, complaining about prices goes back decades. When I was young I couldn't get over the cost of Citadel miniatures my friends were buying compared to the Warrior Miniatures I bought for my historical games. It took a while but I realised that it was horses for courses and that actually GW has been a big driver in improving the range, quality of figures and their presentation. Whether you think that's a good thing is up to you.

I don't see Pringle being lobbied by golfers who want the patterns to produce their own jumpers, nor do Ferrari produce car kits ro replicate their own. You go to a third party.

It's a broad hobby, why not enjoy your own preferences more rather than faulting others?

Marcus, I think this issue is at the heart of many of these debates:

"I paint well and painting figures well is a fairly high skill generally IMHO. I can never get the true value of what I think my work is worth nor would I pay that much for someone else to paint for me at that quality."

You are not the paying demographic though. Paying painters when I was young seemed to be far less common. It feels like people had more time and less disposable income than now. I have many multiples of my original collection and still game less frequently.

The hobby (as I said above) is still full of amateurs mixing with professionals. It shouldn't be a problem, but it is and I don't see it changing soon:

We have amateur A charging 2x for their product and complain that professional B is charging 5x because it's the real cost of that time/resource when it's not subsidised by a day job*. Meanwhile professional C is charging x because their labour costs in a developing nation are far less.

Despite all this, people will still make choices, often unrelated to the cost. You might know A personally, B's work has appeared in a magazine recently and C struggles to be entirely accurate with uniform details. It's the same with the terrain, it's often not just cost as an issue.

*Amateur A may struggle going pro because their regular clientele are used to paying 2x, hence one reason why there are still fewer pro painters out there.