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"2nd Ed with 1st Ed army books" Topic


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Last Hussar23 Feb 2020 4:00 a.m. PST

Will 2nd Ed still work if I use the 1st Ed lists? Are the terms compatible?

Last Hussar23 Feb 2020 4:01 a.m. PST

Will 2nd Ed still work if I use the 1st Ed lists? Are the terms compatible?

bpreston27 Feb 2020 4:55 p.m. PST

Hi Hussar

More or less, Yes. You can use v1 lists for v2.

The points for some troop types and attachments have changed, but that should be a pretty easy fix (the new points are set out in the v2 rulebook). If you download the v2 excel army list builder, it will have the updated points included.

There are a ton of changes in the v2 lists. Hardy any lists remain just the the same as they were in v1. There are also new lists, attaching divisions from other lists is different, and how many artillery bases are available are all quite different in the v2 lists.

At some stage I would imagine FoGN players would want to get a hold of the v2 lists and use them.

That all said, it is completely possible to play v2 using forces drawn from the v1 army lists. Indeed it's probably a cost effective approach for v1 players. Get hold of the v2 rules, play some games using old lists, and later decide if you want to invest in buying the new lists.

Cheers

Last Hussar29 Feb 2020 7:44 a.m. PST

I'm working to 1809 orbats anyway, so limits not so important, I think I have some divisions that are against the rules, but are the best fit for history.

V2 has been in and out of the Amazon basket multiple times. Is it really that much better its worth buying if I have 1st Ed?

bpreston01 Mar 2020 1:02 p.m. PST

Short answer on v2 is yes. If you are playing FoGN, upgrading to v2 is a no brainer. It's a quantum advance on v1.

The rules have been re-drafted and re-organised for ease of use, unreformed are now much more playable, long range artillery is now useful, the game plays faster with a huge variety of set-up situations and the points (for those who play points games) have been balanced.

There are a ton of small and large changes, a lot of v1 rules have been simplified or removed where they added little to the game.

There's a list of v2 rule changes that I've copied below.
Sorry, formatting transposes horribly.

v2 Changes from v1 include:

TROOP TYPES

Unreformed Infantry (and Extended Lines)
Unreformed Line Infantry now 1 point per base cheaper.
British-trained infantry (fire as reformed, move as unreformed) also get the 1 point discount.
1813 or later Austrian Line Infantry (including Grenadiers) are unreformed infantry that move as reformed but have no medium range shooting (except with attachments), ie the opposite to Brits. They haven't dropped a point (ie remain 8 points a base for average drilled).
Unreformed Line infantry move 6MU in Tactical formation if no part of their move is within 6MU of an enemy unit.
Unreformed do not lose a dice for Cohesion Tests while in Extended Line formation.
Unreformed who make an outcome move only face away if they retire 6MU or more.
All extended lines need a 6+ to pass their CT when assaulted by cavalry: whether they stand and fire; or form square.
There are no unreformed Light Infantry. All Light Infantry now count as reformed.
1813 or later Austrian Line Infantry (including Grenadiers) are unreformed infantry that count as reformed for movement (ie the opposite to Brits). They haven't dropped a point (ie remain 8 points a base for average drilled).

Light infantry

Regular Light infantry are 2 points a base more expensive.
Light infantry can no longer form Skirmish formation (no infantry can form skirmish nor evade).
Light infantry are given more manoeuvrability in terrain, moving at 6MU through rough terrain in tactical formation.
Cavalry presence deducts 1 dice (not 2) from medium range fire. So rifles are no different to muskets when cavalry are around. The only benefit of Rifles is a better chance of killing a commander.

Irregular Light Infantry

Irregular Light Infantry move, fire and fight as follows:
- They can make up to a full move backwards without a CMT. They take a CT at the end of the retirement if enemy were within 2MU.
-They cannot form square nor evade (so are vulnerable to cavalry and infantry in the open)
-They fight using ‘Other' factors, have a -POA in combat and re-roll 6's when firing.

Light Cavalry

Regular light cavalry cannot evade. Extended line is not a skirmishing formation for regular cavalry.
Irregular Light cavalry Cossack types are called "Irregular Light Cavalry (Skirmish)" and must pass a CMT to assault the front of an enemy unit (except other Irregular Lights) unless the enemy is wavering. They also:
- cannot move sideways (except with a normal 1 base width slide).
- cannot give flank or rear support.
Irregular Light Cavalry (skirmish) along with Irregular Light Infantry, are labelled ‘Irregular Lights'.

Heavy Cavalry

HC get +1 dice in combat against LC or against infantry not in square in the open.
HC can move 9MU in the open.

Guards:

Guard will drop 3 cohesion levels (ie broken) if they receive 8 combat hits in one combat.
Guard Cavalry (like all cavalry now) require a CMT to assault while spent.
Guard do not re-roll 1's for CT, CMT tests or combat, simply for being Guards.
Guard can be supported in combat by non-Guard units.
Infantry and Artillery Guards only +2 points per base.

Artillery

Lists will cap the total number of artillery bases that can be used (either in units or as attachments).
Artillery units must all be placed in a single division (this replaces the v1 rule that only one artillery unit is allowed per division).
Artillery are more expensive (both units and attachments).
Artillery classifications have been simplified.
- Artillery are never rated Superior.
- Artillery attachments may not be added to Artillery units.
- There are no special rules for rockets, howitzers or mortars. You may depict some artillery models as such types, but they shoot the same as other artillery.
Limbered Horse Artillery move 8MU.
All unlimbered artillery stand and fire when assaulted, or may abandon if friendly infantry within 2MU.
Artillery may not make a 2nd move if the first was to limber up.
Artillery don't pivot before firing to get targets in arc. Instead they have wider firing arcs.

DIVISIONS

All divisions have a minimum of 2 units.
Mixed divisions must have at one unit of infantry and at least one unit of cavalry

GAME SETUP

A completely new game setup system, using a unique ‘Strategies' system where each player chose 1 of 6 Strategies, providing 35 possible setup combinations.
Deploy by Divisions (rather than 3 units at a time).
There are no ‘army initiative' levels anymore. Deciding who is the attacker/defender is based on the Strategy selected.


COMMAND POINTS

Units do not get ‘free' CMTs for an attached commander anymore. All CMTs require command points. BCs get 1CP for their own unit.
Assaulting when out of command range always requires a CMT (costing 2 CPs as not in range)
Level 2 and 3 DCs are cheaper.
Commanders range drops to 0 if leading a unit in contact with enemy.


ASSAULTS

Units can declare an assault conditional on another assaulting unit moving out of the way.
Cavalry cannot assault enemy infantry in difficult terrain.
Infantry can assault Irregular LC (Skirmish).
Infantry assaulted by mounted in rough can choose to form square just as they could in the open. The difference is they don't need to take a CT when doing this.
Disordered troops no longer need a CMT to assault.
Spent Guard or Shock Cavalry (like all cavalry) must pass a CMT to assault unless assaulting waverers or a flank/rear.
Intercept moves cancel counter-charges.
Infantry intercepted by cavalry drop a cohesion level.
There are limits on the number of units that can assault a target that has flank support.
Assaults across bridges are handled the same way as assaults across terrain.

Impetuous troops

These no longer need a CMT to prevent an assault.
Instead they are affected when it comes to pursuits, as follows:
- They MUST pursue unless wavering (with no option to try and CMT to halt).
- If the target of their pursuit or assault moves out of range, they MUST continue directly straight ahead. They do not have the option of deviating to hit new targets within 2MU.

Defensive Fire

Assaulting units receive Support Fire (only) from every enemy unit whose arc of fire they pass through within close range. (+1 dice if infantry only, +2 if including artillery). Firers, including support fire dice, hit on 4's.
Units are moved directly into contact before receiving defensive fire, rather than physically stopping at 2MU. If the unit is Driven Back from charging home (by receiving 2 or 3 hits) it is then moved back out of contact to 2MU (or 3MU if cavalry without an artillery attachment).


MOVEMENT

Reserves, Reinforcements and Flank Marches are only permitted if the relevant ‘Strategy' is selected.

Arrival of Reserves

A ‘Reserve' is a division deployed in Reserve just off table.
Arrival of Reserves is not diced for. The division can move on table in any friendly movement phase.
If enemy are within 12MU of the baseline of the arrival sector at the start of your movement phase, Reserves must come on that phase.

Arrival of Reinforcements

A ‘Reinforcement' is a division marching to the sound of the guns.
Reinforcements are diced for just like a Flank March and must arrive the turn after the arrival dice succeed. They are not triggered by enemy within 12MU.


Arrival of Flank Marches

At the beginning of the Movement Phase and starting with turn 1 the active player rolls for the arrival of each division that starts off-table as a flank march.
Roll 1 dice in turn 1, 2 in turn 2 and so on until the reinforcements arrive, requiring a 5 on any dice to arrive.
Add 1 dice if Divisional commander is skilled, add 2 if exceptional
A Corps Commander can choose to use 2 of his CPs to get a single extra die when rolling for arrivals (both Reinforcements and Outflanks).
The outflanking division moves on in the turn following successful arrival.

Sliding to avoid friends

A move can include a slide within 6MU of enemy by the minimum necessary up maximum of 1 base width to avoid friends, terrain or table edges. Shifting is allowed in Movement, Assaults and Pursuits.

Table edges

Troops who reach a side table edge as part of an Outcome move turn by minimum necessary to align units side edge with table edge and then complete the move (including the turn as part of move distance)

Kinked lines

All references to kinked extended lines are removed.

ABANDONED GUNS

No artillery evades, whether limbered or unlimbered, except limbered artillery assaulted from beyond 6MU may evade.
Unlimbered artillery may choose to abandon without a CT if friendly (non-wavering) infantry are within 2MU.
Unlimbered artillery who elect to take a CT to stand and fire at close range (passing on a 4), and fail the CT abandon as above if friendly infantry within 2MU.
Abandoned guns are automatically recovered at the end of a player's recovery phase if there are no enemy within 6MU of their position. Gunners return disordered.

COMPLEX MOVES

All complex moves entirely beyond 6MU of enemy do not require a dice roll and can be performed if a commander has enough CPs to allocate: Veterans require no CP for their 1st CMT; Drilled and 2nd CMTs for Veterans cost 1 CP; and Conscripts & Irregulars cost 2 CPs. Complex move within 6MU of enemy all require 1 CP and dice are rolled for a CMT.
A unit that moves away from the nearest enemy within 6MU (either by making a Complex Move to the rear or moving away from a flank/rear threat take a CT at the end of the move away. Irregular Lights only take a CT if beginning within 2MU.

FIRING

Enemy Cavalry
Cavalry presence deducts 1 dice from medium range fire.
Large units
Large units fire with all their dice even if only one base is in front of the target.

Artillery fire
ARC
– No ‘free' Pivots
– At Long Range – 2 base widths on either side (only if no targets at medium or short range)
– AT Medium & Short Range – 1 base width on either side

TARGET PRIORITY
At Long Range fire dice do not have to be split (you can allocate them all to a single target)


FIRING OVER INTERVENING FRIENDS
All references to overhead firing are removed as there are no longer any infantry skirmishers.

Firing & combat

Troops who assault can fire if they fail to contact (ie are Driven Back or their target moved away).
Units in combat cannot fire or be fired upon (regardless of whether they are large or small). This also means units stuck in combat who then get assaulted get no defensive fire.

Cavalry presence only deducts 1 dice for medium range on firing, not -2.

‘Retire to 3mu' now "Driven Back"
This firing result has been renamed ‘Driven Back' to distinguish it from a retirement, which it is not.
A unit Driven Back goes directly to its own rear (unless the closest enemy firer is to the rear/flank, when it turns before being driven back)
The unit is Driven Back to 3MU from the closest enemy who fire at it (not all enemy units).
The unit stops if it meets: another unit; a building; or impassable terrain. It stops fractionally short of a blocking enemy unit. It does not pass through friends nor cause any test. This means that a rear supporting unit, positioned in contact with the rear of a unit being fired at, will prevent it from being Driven Back.

COMBAT

Resolve all combat dice using the quality of the unit in combat, i.e. supporting units don't roll separately even if they are of different quality.
Large units do not reduce the number of hits by 1 when wavering.
Artillery beaten in combat are always destroyed.
Cavalry lose 1 dice when fighting squares in rough/difficult.
The various bonuses for being heavier cavalry are ignored in rough or difficult.


Flank & Rear support

Foot support foot, mounted support mounted.
Artillery, Irregular Lights & March Columns cannot provide nor receive support
No flank or rear support for either side when by or against buildings or squares


Casualties to Commanders

CCs roll 2 dice for casualties (like DCs), not 3 dice.
Commanders die on 4+ if their unit breaks. Become a casualty on: 6+ if you win (or are shot), 5+ if you retire but don't break (or shot by rifles); 4+ if you break.

OUTCOME MOVES

Retire directly to own rear unless shot from flank/rear, when turn face first.
Broken units are removed after making their initial rout move (and all affected units have tested for seeing the rout).

PURSUIT MOVES

Cavalry pursue unless wavering or CMT to hold (impetuous cavalry cannot attempt this CMT). Infantry halt unless they pass a CMT to pursue.
Pursuers first do a free wheel to line up parallel with the Retirers, then roll their pursuit dice.
Any pursuit combats take place immediately, they don't wait until the following turn.
A unit only pursues once, however if a pursuit contact leads to the pursuing unit being thrown back, the new victor unit may themselves pursue.

PASS THROUGH

Cavalry only pass through infantry if the infantry are in square and the cavalry ‘win' the combat (ie end up with a higher cohesion level than the square), and there is room directly beyond the square to place the unit (artillery, Irregular Lights and wavering units do not block).
Only 1 unit can pass through a square, any other cavalry units retire.
A unit passing through becomes disordered, if not already.

TROOPS STILL IN CONTACT

There are no rules for adjusting units still in combat – they just remain where they were at the end of Combat
Troops stuck in combat and then assaulted get no defensive fire.
If fighting against a building and a unit outside use the number of combat dice allowed against the unit outside the building.

RECOVERY PHASE
Broken units may not be rallied.

VICTORY CONDITIONS
Large and Small units are worth the same 2ACV,
Wavering units count as 1 ACV lost, while they are wavering,
The old 40/20 win ratio has been replaced by 40/30 – so you win if your opponent has lost 40% or more while you have lost under 30%.

TERRAIN
A base is inside terrain if 2 corners are inside the terrain piece.

Effects of Terrain:
Firing is affected by terrain as follows:


Rough terrain:
Has no effect on firing at medium range (this fire represents the skirmisher screen in front firing).
Reduces firing by 1 level of cohesion at close (volley) range

Difficult Terrain:
Reduces firing by 1 level of cohesion at medium range
Reduces firing by 2 levels of cohesion at close range

Obstacles
These have largely been removed from the rules. Terrain is open, rough or difficult.

Rivers & Streams
These are effectively strips of terrain that are open, rough, difficult or impassable.
Infantry defending a river (even an open one) do not have to take a CT when assaulted by cavalry.

Buildings
Units entering a building first Occupy it. No CMT required to enter and occupy.
A CMT in subsequent turns (or as a second move) is required to change to (or back from) Defending.
Troops Defending a building cannot be broken by firing.
Troops can only exit building from Occupying, not Defending but then don't need a CMT to exit.
Commanders move8 MU in buildings. They can move through or into them, even if occupied, unless by an enemy unit.
There is no march column movement in buildings. Cavalry and Artillery units may Occupy a building but never Defend it. If an Occupying Cavalry or Artillery unit is assaulted, it does a retirement move out of the building.

Field fortifications
Rules for these have been substantially simplified and re-written. They have been renamed ‘Redoubts'
Redoubts effectively just provide protection for units inside.
Redoubts can only be deployed by a player selecting the ‘Positional Defence' strategy.

Last Hussar02 Mar 2020 7:11 p.m. PST

OK. Thanks for all the typing. Still the same basic game though? Just tightened up a bit.

I like it, like the mechanisms. It not just having the changes too minor to make buying worthwhile, its also losing the stuff I like. Plus I have load of movemenet trays for large and small units, with room for info plaques!

Sometimes 2n eds just change it too much (the classic example of this I am told is AK47)

Last Hussar02 Mar 2020 7:21 p.m. PST

Well, I've ordered the damn thing now…

Vincent the Librarian03 Mar 2020 8:29 a.m. PST

You will enjoy it, our group certainly does. I helped write the North American army lists.

bpreston04 Mar 2020 2:06 p.m. PST

Hi Hussar

Yes, same basic game, just significantly more polished.

It would be worth you signing up to the FoGN facebook group. The list of v2 changes I copied above are downloadable from the files section of that group (in a more readable format). It is a helpful list, for v1 players converting to v2, to have on hand when playing their first couple of v2 games.

The FoGN group files section also has available for download the v2 army list builder, and a QRS containing listing all the tables.

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