"Worst last stand/military disaster in which to die" Topic

This does sound a bit dumb at first since a dead man is a dead man but my father and I are huge military history buffs and both of us have always been fascinated by last stand battles and terrible military disasters especially (often times the two go hand in hand) and we have visited all of the ones in the US and want to see the international ones. We were talking in the car today about which of these battles would be the worst to fight or die in, either by way of death or just sheer terror of knowing you aren't going to make it. My vote was Little Bighorn or the Fetterman Fight as I've visited both those battlefields and weirdly have had a nightmare for years about being attacked by Indians and one where I was killed at LBH, and I know for a fact it was LBH because I've been there. Anyway, this does sound weird but I'm curious if any of you have ever thought about this. Which of the battles that fall into either or both of these categories would based on what we know be the worst way to die?

LBH would be bad. Isandlwana, too. Last few rooms of the Alamo.

Really, any battle where I'm surrounded and about to be hacked to death would pretty much suck, but it's extra sucky to be among the last as you see it coming.

Any pointless last stand

Stalingrad. Years of gulag just to die anyway.

Bataan. You fight for months, your commanding officer is evacuated along with his family and clothes, furniture, etc, and you have to die of starvation on the Death March or in a Japanese POW camp.

Isandlhwana. Outnumbered 20 to 1, Zulus coming from every direction, and knowing that the Zulus don't take prisoners.

Adowa is similar to Isandlhwana in its horribleness.

The 1842 retreat from Kabul always sounded pretty bloody awful. It must have been pretty terrifying watching the column slowly fall apart in hostile territory.

Or Little Bighorn

Culloden, especially if you like whisky, salmon and beef.

New Orleans 1815, That major battle in the 1812 -14 war.

Retreat from Moscow, either 1812 or 1941/42 – freezing, starving and very angry Russians in the offing.

Wake Island

For military disaster Stalingrad and Retreat from Moscow are way up there

For last stand Isandlhwana

1842 retreat from Kabul was pretty awful

"When you're wounded and dying on Afghanistan's plains. And the women come out to cut up your remains. Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains. And go to your God like a soldier"

Not a last stand but Andersonville Prison is one of the scariest places I've every been. Also the Donner party site.

Teutoburg Forest
Swiss Guards in 1792 defending an abandoned Tuileries

Fetterman: Not only are you dying, you are freezing

Well I'm not sure it is worst last stand/military disaster in which to die. But, Captain Cook in Hawaii might be.
When Hawaiians are asked what type of guy Captain Cook was there reply " was delicious! ".

As pointed out by others, perhaps it is not the final death blow that makes the last stand the worst place to die, but the lead up. Moscow retreats, Stalingrad, Kabul retreat, Battle of Carrhae, Berlin 1945 (especially if you are a civilian), Lenningrad, Masada, Warsaw Ghetto, Mount Carmel Center siege.

To be a citizen in any town or city that didn't immediately surrender to a Roman army upon demand. Bad things were going to be coming my way.

Thinking about it you probably didn't want to be in Baghdad circa Feb 10th 1258AD either…Mongols didn't have a reputation for being a nice bunch.

How about falling into the hands of Vlad the impaler ?

Choctaw, that's what I was thinking. Jerusalem comes to mind.

Titanic.

Is there a good one to die in?

USS Indianapolis.

Braddock's Defeat, or Grant's Hill. Captured by Indians and killed in ritualistic torture.

I admit that it's relatively small, but no mention of Camerone? Or does that count as a good last stand and not a military disaster?

Otherwise, like the above, I'd go with Isandlhwana or possibly the Fetterman Massacre

I really liked these responses to my post. Interesting stuff to ponder.
I still think LBH and Fetterman would be worse than Isandlwana though. I've always found Plains Indians warriors far more scary looking and frightening than Zulus.

I was going to say Stalingrad, but Dicymick's comment about the Indianapolis…

So the USS Indianapolis is the one that would frighten me the most.

Any of them… Here's one. Is it worst to be the first one killed in or war or the last one?

Battle of Camerone in Mexico. Defining moment for the FFL.

Camerone: minuses you are dying of thirst; men were drinking their own blood. Pluses, the Mexicans took prisoners. What do we make of the Indian accounts that many of Custer's men took their own lives as their firing line collapsed?

Nick, I think that refers to the old saying "save your last bullet for yourself." No one wanted to be captured for fear (real or otherwise) by the "savage" Indians. Some no doubt did take their lives rather that chance being taken alive.

Save the last bullet for yourself came about because it was believed that Indians would torture prisoners to death. The Comanche and Apache certainly tortured captives to death all the time as did the Eastern tribes but I've never heard of the Sioux or Cheyenne doing as such. They often just took no prisoners and at LBH soldiers did try to surrender but were killed by the warriors on the spot. The newspaper accounts reporting torture at the battle are probably just propaganda and it's possible when soldiers discovered mutilated bodies of their comrades they believed that to be a result of torture rather than inflicted after death to cripple them in the afterlife. So it's a safe bet that there was no torture of captives at LBH or any other Sioux-US battle although Custer's men did not know that.

If a town militia, effectively, can be considered a fighting unit, and thus the destruction of a town and its inhabitants (m,w&ch) a "last stand", I'd include the Sack of Berwick on Tweed by the forces of Edward I of England. It lasted three days.

Any battle where I get stabbed to death. link

Exactly, though I think being eaten by a shark probably tops all others.

My $.02 USD,

Berlin 1945! Fighting a totally lost cause for a most evil regime and upper leaders (Hitler and cronies). Who in the end---did not care a rat's ass about any individual other than himself/themselves.
Tom Semian
Irvine, PA. 16329

It may be a bit obscure, but I would cast my vote for the battle of Concepcion, July 9-10, 1882. A Chilean garrison of 77 (plus three women and two children) in the town of Concepcion, Peru, were besieged and final massacred by a force of 1,300 Peruvians. Only the kids survived.

I always thought it would make an interesting scenario. It even has a built-in time limit as the main Chilean army showed up a scant two hours too late.

2nd vote for Bataan.

Isandlhwana, not fond of Zulu abdominal surgery.

Fort Pillow in the American Civil War. Lots of Very Bad Things done to troops who had already surrendered, both black and white.

I think Fort Pillow is more of a massacre than a last stand or military disaster, but yes that'd be one of the worst to be killed in. Especially if you were black. Rebels would make you suffer.

"And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?"

Given 100% mortality, surely HOW one dies is the key thing, and some of those listed above -- the Alamo for example -- were glorious.

Imagine the exultation of the kamikazi pilot as he dives for the enemy carrier. Imagine riding with Theoden into nearly-certain death.

I think many of the battles listed were unnecessary or futile, and knowing that while IN IT would be depressing. But duty and courage have intrinsic value regardless.

Surprised no one mentioned Thermopylae.

But the question is about "worst", and given the famous epitaph, and concern for reputation outliving the mortal existence of the warrior, surely Thermopylae would have been – in the estimation of the Spartans – just about as good as it gets? Wouldn't they have got on well with Vikings?

All are bad but for me Gandamack must rate highly, firstly for the sudden shock, it happened relatively quickly, to the average soldier or camp follower there wasn't a long drawn out campaign, the uprising must have appeared to come from nowhere so no time to mentally prepare for what was to follow. It's winter so it's freezing cold with little protection against the elements. The actual massacre goes on for days, being picked off at range with little chance of fighting back, the tribesmen generally picking you off at leisure with the longer range Jezail, then brutally finishing you off with knives. The huge casualty list of camp followers etc as well as troops must have meant all in all it was a truly horrifying experience. And only one person got out!

Battle of Cannae if your a Roman !