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"M60A1 and M60A2 Retirement Dates?" Topic


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Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP12 Feb 2020 8:52 p.m. PST

Anyone know when the M60A1 and M60A2 were retired from the US Army and Marines?

I see mention the M60A1s served in Desert Storm in 1991 with the US Marines, and that apparently all Pattons were retired in 1997.

I'd like to know when they were retired, and/or pulled from NW Europe.

RudyNelson12 Feb 2020 10:50 p.m. PST

The First Cavalry Division BEGAN getting the M1 in early 1979. The first battalion to get some was the Cavalry 1/9 squadron. They replaced the M551 Sheridan. They conducted field tests while other battalions received them. The M60A2 battalion got the next batch.

Wolfhag13 Feb 2020 2:50 a.m. PST

I'm pretty sure the Marines started transitioning just before the First Gulf War.

Thresher01, you going to DundraCon this weekend?

Wolfhag

Onomarchos13 Feb 2020 4:52 a.m. PST

The M60A1s were replaced in USAREUR starting in 1979 and were gone by 1981. The M60A2s were replaced between 1980 and 1981. Note that these tanks were not necessarily replaced with M1s, but with M60A3s.

Mark

Major Mike13 Feb 2020 6:39 a.m. PST

The a1's were around in the Army almost into the 1990's as well as the M48a5. They were standard in the National Guard and Reserves with only the round out units for Active Duty Divisions getting the M-1 before some Active Duty Battalions. The 1st Infantry Division didn't start getting M-1's until late 1988. The units of the division had a wide selection of different a1's, some with searchlights and IR sights and others with no searchlight and passive sights. Replacement of the a1's in units in Europe with the a3 were not complete until first half of 1982 (we got ours just before Christmas 1981 and we were a front line unit). I think the 8th ID was the last to transition to the a3.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP13 Feb 2020 7:18 a.m. PST

Thanks for all the replies, and info. I really appreciate it.

Alas no, Wolfhag, though I'd like to. I have to work, instead, and getting weekends off is difficult, to impossible now, sadly.

I wish I could, since I would like to try out your rules, and still want a copy of them.

Let me know next time you are up in Sac, and we'll see if I can work things around to get a bit of time off.

I'm trying to convince Timecast to produce the M60A1 and A2 tanks as well, to go with their A3 model.

I much prefer the M60A1, since it served from 1962 1982, so for much of the Cold War, as opposed to just the end of it. I'm hoping to get them to produce the one with the mounted searchlight, since it just looks so cool. That way, I can game almost any period I want for Soviet/WP attacks into NW Europe.

I figured the M60A1s would be brought back into any late Cold War scenarios if it had really gone hot, to make up for losses, and since it was such an effective vehicle.

I read on-line that the last A1s with new FC software were able to hit targets while on the move (the M60A1 moving) at 2,000m, 70% of the time, making it enormously more effective. Results were from testing at Aberdeen. Prior to that, its chance was virtually zero, so it would have been similar to the M-1 tank, I suspect, in terms of being able to effectively fire on the move.

If you are interested in them as well, write them, and perhaps they'll consider producing them too, since the hull is already done, and much of the rest of the tank too, with their M60A3 variant.

Would like the M60A2s too, to give the NATO/US players fits with that one, and its missile/gun combo.

Legion 413 Feb 2020 7:34 a.m. PST

Yes, everything my fellow Vets has posted I agree. thumbs up

BTW Now here is a real anomaly. I was assigned to the 197th Mech Hvy Bde(SEP) at Ft. Benning, GA, '86-'90. Consisting of 2 Mech[M113] Bns and 1 Tank Bn, + Support, e.g. FA Bn, etc.

The 197th was part of the 18th Airborne Corps. Which had both the 82d and 101.

The Tank Bn of the 197th was unique AFAIK in the US ARMY. In that the Tank Bn had 3 M60A1 Cos. and 1 M1IP Co. Having commanded one of the Mech Cos in one of the Mech Bns. I was frequently cross-attached to that Tank Bn.

M48a5.
The 2 Tank Bns in the 2ID in the ROK had M48a5s in the early 80s, IIRC.

M60A2s
From what I heard from the "old timer" back then. Most of the M60A2s with combo missile/cannon system generally were down for maintenance. I guess the Combo weapons system had some problems. IIRC it was the same or similar to M551 Sheridan's main gun.

So for gaming purposes you may want to add a maint. 1d6 roll to for each M60A2. To see if it gets out of the motor pool !
evil grin E.g. 1d6 : 1-3 it's dead lined, 4+ it can roll !

ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore14 Feb 2020 5:44 p.m. PST

Ononmarchos- "The M60A1s were replaced in USAREUR starting in 1979 and were gone by 1981." I think that it depends what you mean by the term "gone".

The European POMCUS depots of the 1st ID and 5th ID certainly retained M60A1s for quite a bit longer. The 5th ID drew them for use in Reforger 84 CERTAIN FURY, and the 1st ID drew theirs in 1986 for CERTAIN SENTINEL. I'm looking at photos of both as I write this.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP14 Feb 2020 7:39 p.m. PST

Yea, I'll bet if the Cold War actually went hot, ALL those mothballed vehicles, including even the M60A2s would have seen service in Western Europe, to make up for the very high attrition rates expected for WWIII.

Training, and/or finding crews to man them all would have been more difficult than obtaining the equipment.

Soviets/WP also had deep reserves of a lot of surplus vehicles, including even old WWII models.

Legion 415 Feb 2020 8:28 a.m. PST

The Crews would supposed to be coming from CONUS to man those POMCUS Vehicles. By air hopefully …

Some of those POMCUS stocks may have included even M48A5s.

POMCUS locations were targeted by the USSR with airstrikes, missiles, SF units or sleeper cells.

Depending on "how Hot" WWIII in Europe got, with losses of personnel, equipment and also importantly ammo and fuel usage rates along with repair parts, etc. WWIII in the ETO may not have lasted more than a few months ? You can be sure that Supply Pts, Supply Lines, Airfields, Ports, etc., would all be prime targets.

Of course if someone started tossing WMDs around … it may have been over very quickly.

Dynaman878915 Feb 2020 11:19 a.m. PST

> POMCUS locations were targeted by the USSR with airstrikes, missiles, SF units or sleeper cells.

The same is certainly true for all those WP storage sites. Might have been a more "come as you are" war then generally accepted back in the day.

Legion 415 Feb 2020 3:27 p.m. PST

Of course, very much so. Both NATO and WP would probably take some very losses in the first few weeks if not days. Running out of replacements, ammo, fuel, parts, etc.

You'd have to got to war with what you have on hand and after the first few major engagements. You'd be using what would have been left.

RudyNelson16 Feb 2020 6:29 a.m. PST

I was an S4 of the MI battalion, in the 1ID during 1981. One week or 10 days we went on a classified mission to tour our POMCUS sites. We visited all locations to count equipment and ammo.

Concerns included discussions on security of the sites and equipment availability. The projected 15-20% loss of troops during the flight over was annoying. The information that some AFVs would be looted by blue forces to use as replacements was also eye opening. The sites were not only targeted by the Soviets but the French and Americans to keep them from falling into Soviet hands.

One more observation, then a funny story. A majority of the security forces were East German and Czech refugees. So how many agents were among them? So our ammo was stored in a huge mountain where the entrance was through fields on a back road. We expressed concern over getting the ammo out. They said most would be delivered to pre-positioned supply points which were the thing back then.
Anyway as we drove to the site we passed a wagon with three young men in it. Well after over an two hours, we made our return trip. Well the wagn was still on the road and as we passed them, I turned to look at an example of a German wagon. Well two of the three men had cameras out and taking our photos! Agents were every where.

Legion 416 Feb 2020 6:41 a.m. PST

thumbs up

Well two of the three men had cameras out and taking our photos! Agents were every where.
I had heard similar …

E.g. In Panama there were Russian Trawlers off the coast taking our pics.

In the ROK the Norks were taking our pics.

Even my very brief time at Fulda along the IGB they were taking our pictures.

I hope they got my good side … evil grin

ScoutJock16 Feb 2020 8:25 a.m. PST

I was in the only Cav unit in USAREUR whose mission was to go west when the balloon went up.

2AD (FWD) was stationed in northern Germany ostensibly to bolster NorthAG, but actually had the mission of protecting the POMCUS sites until III Corps could fly in the troops to draw the equipment and get into the fight.

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