"CBB Is Acceptable" Topic

Boris, be polite. UshCha's English is far better than my command of whatever his native language is. That's probably true of you as well.

As for terminology, I'd agree that a miniature wargamer, a board wargamer and a computer wargamer are all wargamers. Playing D&D or "Ticket to Ride" just makes you a gamer.

But one reason for miniatures is the aesthetic experience. If you're playing solo, you can suit yourself, though I can't see why you'd go to the expense of buying the miniatures. When you play with others, an unpainted army stiffs them to a degree. You wouldn't agree to take part in a play and be the only one not in costume, I think.

There are quick and easy ways to get a good "two foot" casting. Young miniature wargamers should be encouraged to learn them.

Robert for information UshCha is British, his native language is English.

I know that's what it says on his profile, KYPD38, but I don't believe it. Can you verify?

If we want warGAMEING with minatures to survive for the next generation we need to be more tollerant of all aspects. This thread alone indicates how far we have to travel if we want it to outlive ouselves.

tolerance.

This thread shows nothing of the kind. It shows that almost all the respondents disagree with you. That's all.

I had a regular Saga opponent not long ago. He fielded a largely unpainted army. I was happy to play him. Do you know why? Because he was new to wargaming, and he was painting it, slowly for sure, but week by week the proportion of his army that was painted grew, and the proportion that was unpainted shrank, until the great day came when he had a fully painted Saga 6 point army. Do you know what? His Irish vs my Anglo-Saxons looked the bomb. People watched us play, just because it was a glorious spectacle.

I was happy to play against his unpainted figures because he was making an effort to do his best, and even though it took him a while to get there I was glad to encourage him to paint his figures by happily playing against him and including him in our group.

I didn't include him because he made no effort. I didn't include him because he Couldn't Be Bothered. I included him because he could be bothered. Because he wanted to do a good job and play his part in creating an exciting and visually arresting gaming experience for himself and his opponent.

tolerance. I don't want an inclusive hobby, I don't want a hobby tolerant of Couldn't Be Bothered. I want a hobby that inspires, that makes its participants want to better themselves. I want to bring in new blood because they look at a game and think the same thing I did when I was younger – "Holy hell, that looks incredible! I want to do that for a hobby!"

No one will ever be inspired by bare lead.

+1 Frothers

Thinking back to the first Wargames shows I went to, it was the spectacular looking games that caught my imagination and inspired me, even though I knew I lacked (and still lack) both the skills and resources to create anything similar myself – maybe that feeling of angst that deters participation unless they're lower to use unpainted figures is a new phenomenon amongst the current generation of teenage GW players?

Oh, and I guess UshCha is British, if he's putting on a game at the Hammerhead show in Newark (UK) next month.

Certainly an indicator, Basha. But looking at the posts, I'd still say not a native speaker. They're not illiterate or unintelligent, but sometimes they look as though they've been translated out of some other language, at least mentally. (That would be my German on my best days, and my Spanish and French were never even that good.)

UshCha, you wouldn't care to help us out here?

If it isn't painted… all you have is a bunch of lead. If it's painted it's an army.

The first actual wargame that I witnessed was nicely painted figures on rudimentary terrain. Over the years our terrain got better, but I would not have been so intriqued as to try it if it had been a bunch of bare lead figures on the table. I have seen it done on rare occasion and I was totally unimpressed as were the other spectators. Also, if you are playing with bare lead, how is anyone supposed to know which side you are on, are those French or Prussian, or French or Austrian, what game you are playing, who is winning, and am I being reinforced or outflanked?

It has absolutely nothing with being inclusive, you don't show up at a chess club with checkers.

Finally let us all remember that America and the UK are two countries separated by a common language (Canada and Australia too, don't feel left out). I love watching the British TV shows but I frequently feel that I need a translator to understand what the HE** is gong on, even more so the Australian and New Zealand produced shows. (smile)

Sitting in traffic gives you a wonderful opportunity to think about such things.
One of the guys in the club brought in parts of two really large armies he and two friends were preparing for a convention. Most were painted, some weren't, and I understood that there were plenty more unpainted figures at home. Still, we had a good time playing the game.
I think he got a feel for how things would play out at the convention. Still, we planned to do the game again the next week.
Now I've got a pile of unpainted lead that, well it may not be the largest of any TMPer, but it definitely is large enough to compel respect.
After the game, I suggested that I could paint one of the brigade commanders, if he didn't mind. So, I took it home and painted it for him, and next there were more painted figures.
When the convention came around, there were two huge, all painted armies on the field, and it looked glorious!
So maybe there are folks out there who just don't care, and move on quickly, but there are also those who are working, trying to get things painted, and you could cut them a bit of slack. Or offer to paint a few figures for them.

Grelber

There is a world of difference between I am doing something but is not finished, and I can be bothered to do it.

If you don't believe me next time your boss asks have you done some piece of work, do not say you are working on it, tell you can not be bothered

Robert, I can confirm it as true.

What a stupid discussion

In that case, Boris has a point, and I've been cutting undeserved slack. Beats the reverse, but still…

UshCha, you'll still be wrong, but if you'll make an effort to communicate in standard English, you might be taken more seriously.

Well, I most assuredly do want an inclusive hobby. Room for both painting pedants and don't give a stuff about the aesthetics gamers.

More the merrier.

I like a nicely turned gaiter, but on the whole I'd rather play a map game, with chinagraph pencils on an overlay that gave me the feel of a real battle (minus the actual fear of death and maiming yadda yadda) than a game that bears no relation to warfare other than the pretty toys.

There is a place for beautiful figures on superb terrain but there is most definitely a place for bog standard stuff, and at shows as well.

Don't put people off starting by pretending perfection is the minimum acceptable standard.

By all means show them where it may end up – but that doesn't just mean prettiness, it means games that progress in an exciting fashion following and rewarding real decision making.

I thought the hobby was wargaming not figure painting.

I think UsCha has a point.

I'm English but not sure why that matters.

Gwydion +1.

Interestingly one of my friends who was war gamer, played many a game with Painted screws, that's how we started. Love of the game.

That idea was not mine but from an old war games magazine addressing Napoleonic games. This would be back in the early to mid 70's I guess. Old age means I can't remember the title and I no longer have copies. I guess in those days It may have been a UK only magazine but if I remember correctly it was on glossy paper so not a "club" magazine but essentially black and white photos.

PS I realized I still had the original copy of the rules by WRG dated 1971 that we played. So back then you could be inspired by the game not the figures.

I think UsCha has a point.

Brian does have a point, and he's entitled to his point of view. What he's not entitled to is to denigrate those who do not 'game' the way he does. Calling them "lead pushers", and essentially saying that if you're not doing it my way then you're doing it wrong, is guaranteed to annoy others, and goes to show that he is the one with the less than inclusive attitude.

You know, I've been fussing over this--mostly annoyed by UshCha's belief that he and only he knows the One True Way--but it really doesn't matter. Outside of possibly tournaments, no one who doesn't enjoy the spectacle is going to stay in miniature wargaming very long. The expense of the castings and terrain is disproportionate to the benefits derived from a 3D board--and, in the days of acrylics, castings are far too easy to paint, especially for the World Wars.

Fifty years ago, I watched a wargamer jam 30mm French Cuirassiers into modeling clay--plasticene in the UK?--rather than replace or repair broken horses, and it was openly said he'd have played with nails driven into a board if we'd let him. But all those people are playing computer games today and I'm fighting the last war but one. Well, it's a very historical thing to do. But I shouldn't.

Not to pile on, but as a relative newcomer to wargaming I'd like to say that I originally "couldn't be bothered" with painting either. Nor could I bother with making scenery. Now both are favorite pastimes of mine.

Miniature wargaming, in my mind, is three activities in one hobby (amen, hallelujah): Painting models, making scenery, and playing the game. None of these take precedent over the others, as they all come together to make an enjoyable experience. To encourage people to take up the hobby by telling them not to bother with a major part of it is doing a disservice to them.

Also, doesn't Games Workshop have a three color minimum in all their tournaments?

Slow Oats +1, and "Kinya gimme another AMEN?!?!?!?"