"Iran admits shooting down Ukrainian plane ..." Topic

Sorry, wasn't sure how to start a new topic :-)

Anyway,

So, Iran has admitted to having shot down the Ukranian plane. … which I guess doesn't really come as a huge surprise to anyone … but the fact (and speed) of the admittal is very interesting:

link

I'm surprised they admitted that so fast, given the earlier false narratives downplaying the truth.

I guess the video of the jet on fire, and parts falling off of it were convincing.

Haven't seen it, but also heard it appears some saw the missile streaking toward it too.

Yeah, the footage shows the missile heading straight to it. Probably the only reason they are putting up their hands.

The statement said it had done so due to "human error" after the plane flew close to a sensitive site belonging to Iran's Revolutionary Guards.

I find this incredulous given the aircraft had just taken off from an international airport with a filed flight plan.

Yep, bad week for the Iranians..

"I find this incredulous given the aircraft had just taken off from an international airport with a filed flight plan."

Vincennes?

You obviously don't live literally across the street from a huge airport where pilots constantly make premature turns after taking off.

And given the international situation and American stealth aircraft, etc.? Something seems to appear on your radar out of nowhere, the idea that a bomb might suddenly land on you is pretty scary.

Besides, what's your theory? They shot it down on purpose?

Flightradar have produced a graphic showing the last departure plotted against previous flights, track and climb vectors are identical. There was nothing 'different' about the flight until the missile hit.

The aircraft flight details were filed, it was being positively identified (squarking) and was given clearance to depart.

link

My theory….'it was a tragic cock-up' at all levels.

I take it there is satellite imagery of the SAMs

I'm led to believe the United States detected two launch blips and an impact.

The NY Times reported..

"American satellites, designed to track missile launches, detected the firing of the Iranian short-range interceptor. United States intelligence agencies later picked up Iranian communications confirming that the system brought down the Ukrainian airliner, officials said."

Furthermore, The American military's Space-Based Infrared System, which relies on satellites in various orbits to track the launch and flight path of ballistic missiles, detected the missile launch. While American missile defense sensors are primarily meant to defend against long-range launches, they can often detect launches of air defense systems, including those designed to work at low altitudes, officials have said.

I agree with Evzone. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

The Iranians goofed, which does not surprise me at all…

A very tragic and unnecessary incident.

Simply saying "I didn't do it on purpose." does not excuse any form of guilt. It sure never worked for me with Mum.

After they launched their missiles U.S. bases, I'm sure their AAA batteries went weapons hot.

If Iranian air defense forces were on high alert they should have temporarily shut down their airspace to civilian air traffic. A completely avoidable accident. To even remotely blame the airline pilots is the height of ignorance.

"Blame"?

Or should we have refused to acknowledge even the possibility that the pilots had gone outside of a flight lane? And that I should ignore decades of personal experience? That's the opposite of ignorance. And it was a response to what was written as "it's not possible that they didn't know it was an airliner."

Flightradar's evidence is all but conclusive: the airliner was exactly where it was supposed to be.

"To even remotely blame the airline pilots is the height of ignorance."

Reagan administration response to Vincennes?

"Simply saying "I didn't do it on purpose." does not excuse any form of guilt. It sure never worked for me with Mum."

Iranian statement said they would be punishing those responsible, including prosecution. Given howbbad this had made Iran look, and how much it has distracted the Iranian public and the world from the Suleiman crisis, I believe it. Wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the battery commander.

I doubt the BC will be wearing shoes ever again.
I imagine he already kicked them off in the throes of being hanged.

They do love a good hanging over there …

Even admitting guilt may not get the Iranian government off the hook.

After the reportedly brutal repression of dissenters last year, if the Iranian authorities are seen to be responsible for the deaths of 176 people, mainly Iranians or dual Iranian-Canadian citizens, there may be further problems with their civilian population.

I would imagine a hefty compensation will need to be paid to the 176 victims' families. When the US accidentally shot down the Iranian passenger jet in 1988 (Vincennes incident) — which killed all 290 people aboard — the Reagan government paid US$61.8 million as an ex gratia basis in compensation. The Vincennes incident looks awfully like this one BTW.I wonder if Reagan's mum made him stand in the corner?

Freakin idiots

Perhaps the Iranians were slow to admit their responsibility for the downing of the Ukrainian 737 but at least they have done so now. Pity we can't say the same for the Russians and the shoot down of Malaysian flight MH17 in 2014. Again very similar. Careless but very unlikely deliberate action which resulted in nearly 300 deaths and should have been admitted long ago.

Perhaps the Iranians were slow to admit their responsibility for the downing of the Ukrainian 737 but at least they have done so now.

AYFKM? They flat out lied until they were faced with the fact that there was overwhelming evidence. They would have continued to lie if they thought they could get away with it.

They flat out lied until they were faced with the fact that there was overwhelming evidence. They would have continued to lie if they thought they could get away with it.

Of course they lied. You would have to be naive to think any leader/country wouldn't lie in similar situations. Getting back to the very similar Vincennes Incident, in spite of paying a huge amount of compensation & the overwhelming evidence that the plane was targeted at best from sloppy procedures, the US still doesn't acknowledge the mistake.

George H. W. Bush, at the time the vice president of the United States said, "I will never apologize for the United States – I don't care what the facts are… I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." I'm not surprised by such a disgraceful comment. Russian, Chinese, Iranian…..they all follow Bush's policy.

Close, and now for the rest of the story.

" The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives, but never formally apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing.[17] Informally, on July 5 of 1988 President Ronald Reagan expressed regret; when directly asked if this statement was intended as an apology to Iran, Reagan replied "Yes."[15] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on a separate occasion, speaking to a group of Republican ethnic leaders (7 August 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States – I don't care what the facts are… I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." The quote, although unrelated to the downing of the Iranian air liner and not in any official capacity, has been attributed as such."
link

I wasn't trying to suggest the Iranian government is sitting on a moral high ground and it probably would have continued to deny responsibility if it was remotely plausible. The Russians have continued to deny responsibility for their actions and just look foolish and irresponsible in my view. Perhaps the difference is the error on the Iranian side was made at a comparatively low level in the chain of command.

Fair point tyroflyer2. Thanks for clarification; sorry to jump all over your initial comments.

@USAFpilot

Thanks for the wiki link. I'm not sure why you went to the bother. Are you suggesting Bush didn't utter those reprehensible sentiments? I have seen them recorded elsewhere.

From the same link:

"Bush used the phrase frequently[68] during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shoot-down[69] and as early as January 1988.[70][71]"

I guess the people who voted for him didn't find that statement "reprehensible". He did win election that year, although he lost in ‘92.

Winning an election and saying something morally repugnant aren't mutually incompatible. There are many, many examples of this.

No-one here of course, but you'd have to be a tad hypocritical to condemn one airliner being shot down & not the other.

Me? I condemn both.

It wasn't an "accident".

You have to take the safety/safeties off, and press a button (apparently a couple of times if the reports of two missiles fired are correct).

Someone/several people screwed up big time, and now at least some of the Iranian people want the Ayatollah removed over that.

I hope they get their wish.

I think it's highly unlikely anyone intentionally shot down a civilian airliner. Not the Iranians, not the Americans or even the Russians. Deliberately attempting to kill an aircraft mistakenly seen as a threat certainly. In all cases careless, incompetent and tragic. The USA and Iran (even if after some delay) admitted their responsibility and the Americans made some financial restitution. I suspect the Russians can't admit their mistake because sending a highly sophisticated anti-aircraft missile system outside their own country required sanction at high level and those at high level get protected when it all goes wrong.

Winning an election and saying something morally repugnant aren't mutually incompatible

Agree, but I find nothing wrong with then Vice President Bush saying he is not an "American apologist". In fact most people, whether or not they agreed with his politics found that George H. W. Bush a very honorable man. I think both airline shoot downs were sad tragedies, but there was nothing "repugnant" or "reprehensible" in Bush's comments.

ut there was nothing "repugnant" or "reprehensible" in Bush's comments.

We'll have to disagree on this then. The "my country right or wrong" crowd (no matter which country)are a major problem with the world today.