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"Arming The Space Force: Choosing The Official Space Gun," Topic


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Tango0125 Dec 2019 12:30 p.m. PST

"Ever since President Trump announced that a Space Force should be established, firearms enthusiasts have envisioned space suited door gunners, shooting any variety of futuristic-looking "space guns". The hope for a phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range has been renewed once more. As we move closer to the proposed, four year buildup of the United States Space Force, let's look at some more realistic options for choosing a standard issue firearm of the Space Force. First, though, let's look at some of the challenges that stand in the way of bringing a firearm into the final frontier.

The problem of weight, as it pertains to choosing which firearm to fire in space, comes in two different aspects. Weight of the chosen firearm itself isn't actually that large of a challenge, but the weight of the bullet it fires can come into play if a spacewalker fires enough rounds. Getting the gun and ammo into space is fairly trivial since each gun will only weigh one and a half to three pounds, which is only a tiny fraction of the weight of the person that will be carrying it…"

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Amicalement
Armand

williamb25 Dec 2019 12:49 p.m. PST

Written by someone who has no concept of space warfare or latest military technology. He barely covers the effect of Newton's third law. Aim a laser at someone and they will overheat due to the problem of heat dissipation. Then there are also drones and similar unmanned weapons.

epturner25 Dec 2019 1:36 p.m. PST

Maybe they could fire "space balls"…

Yes. I went there.

Eric

USAFpilot25 Dec 2019 1:57 p.m. PST

Of course saying "space force" evokes images from science fiction of futuristic looking soldiers clad in strange high tech gear and wielding laser weapons. Fun to think about. The reality is the space force is probably made up computer nerds and scientists sitting in offices.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP25 Dec 2019 4:19 p.m. PST

The reality is the space force is probably made up computer nerds and scientists sitting in offices.

I'm sure a good part of the space force will be junior officers sitting offices with video game controllers, probably next door to the Air Force's drone controllers.

Roderick Robertson Fezian26 Dec 2019 11:21 a.m. PST

It's time for an updated Gyrojet!

Tango0126 Dec 2019 11:31 a.m. PST

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

wardog29 Dec 2019 12:28 p.m. PST

how would a crossbow perform in space?

USAFpilot29 Dec 2019 1:39 p.m. PST

Interesting question on the crossbow. Never shot one. Is there a recoil? Problem with guns is the recoil. Newton's 3rd law of physics: for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Somehow space weapons will need to evenly redistribute reactive forces so as not to cause unwanted force in the wrong direction.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2019 10:26 p.m. PST

@USAFpilot: You have nicely stated the need for directed energy hand weapons. A laser has effectively no recoil. In the interim, hand weapons with rocket-propelled ammunition are an option.

How does recoil work with a slingshot? a bow and arrow?

Choctaw30 Dec 2019 8:52 a.m. PST

Yes, most crossbows have some recoil.

UshCha30 Dec 2019 12:51 p.m. PST

Slingshots would be BAD news rotation and recoil, even more complex. Even rockets may be "fun", Terrestrial RPG's often have a standard charge to blow the rocket out before it lights up the main motor so have some recoil. Perhaps the ideal is a laser guided rocket that can be set adrift and follows the owner using minimal thrust like a drone following a runners homing device which then activates its main thruster when a target has been acquired.

Impact of recoil could be minimized with say a hand held rail gun. Recoil is Mass times velocity. Killing is more energy which is Mass times velocity ^2. So a very high speed projectiles say 5000m/s could have minimum recoil but very high damage. i.e for a 40gr (2.5 grm) at about 340m/s. a 0.01156 grm bullet at 5000m/s would do the same damage but have 14 times less recoil.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP05 Feb 2020 1:58 p.m. PST

Problem with guns is the recoil.

Recoil is a problem. But contrary to what the op states:
Weight of the chosen firearm itself isn't actually that large of a challenge…

The cost of putting mass into space is, in the current best case scenario (the lowest cost among competing commercial launchers) about $43,000 USD per pound to get it to the ISS. But the cost is highly dependent on where you want it once it's in space -- higher orbits cost significantly more.

Guns use mass to safely encapsulate chamber pressures and manage recoil forces. A gun of less than 1 pound (better to use .45Kg)* will only manage pistol-sized cartridges. You will want a couple pounds (1+ Kg) to manage rifle-sized cartridge chamber pressures, unless you move to very expensive metals, which you might want to do given the very expensive launch costs.

*Note: Pounds are a measure of weight, which will change radically as you go into the lower and lower gravity of various levels of orbit. Kgs are a measure of mass, which remains unchanged anywhere you go in space.

In any case, if you are building a "space force" of many armed soldiers, the weight / mass of the guns will matter. Imagine if the USMC had to pay $43,000 USD to ship each personal weapon to every outpost or depot. It adds up pretty quickly.

UshCha has it pretty much right on handling recoil. Using the mass of the gun to manage recoil is a massively expensive undertaking in space. Far better to use low- or no-recoil weapons to start.

Mass of the weapon can be mitigated by choosing weapon types that do not generate high chamber pressures. This favors directed energy weapons and rocket-propelled projectile weapons.

Add to UC's analysis the fact that there is almost no drag in space. This means that there is no counter-force to the acceleration a rocket engine provides -- all thrust generates additional velocity, none is use to maintain the velocity already established. Depending on the range to the target you can establish VERY high velocities with rockets in space. And there is no need to add mass to the projectile in the form of stabilizing fins (they wouldn't work anyways).

The shortcomings are the time-to-velocity of the rocket projectile relative to other weapon types, the collateral damage to "friendly" objects behind the rocket, and the weight of the loaded rocket projectile is greater -- the thrust-to-fuel is lower than a gun (as you are not effectively enclosing and directing as great of a % of the impulse of expanding gases, as you do in a gun) meaning you'll need more fuel than in a gun cartridge, and you need some mass to enclose the fuel and control the burn of the rocket. The longer and slower your burn, the less problem you have with mass to control and with collateral effects.

All of that said, if you go with very small, long-burning fast projectiles you could manage a fairly high number of projectiles for not-too-much mass. Or you can have a very small burst charge in a frangible projectile, which turns a single projectile into an expanding cloud of projectiles as it nears the target. Again, with no meaningful drag, half of the projectiles in this cloud will not loose any velocity at all, and will in fact gain velocity, from the bursting process.

But such rockets won't be particularly useful for visual-range fighting. Directed energy weapons will probably be better for the short-range fast fight.

Aim a laser at someone and they will overheat due to the problem of heat dissipation.

Space systems already manage heat dissipation. The sun's radiation, when not filtered by an atmosphere, is a right b!tch. An astronaut's space-walk suit already has to manage a 300f differential in the surface temparatures between the sunny and shady sides of the leg or arm.

So the emphasis will probably be on creating pin-holes or small slices. That's all you need to do to ruin an astronaut's day.

Or so I understand.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Tango0106 Feb 2020 12:29 p.m. PST

Thanks!.


Amicalement
Armand

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