"Tactics Discussion: First shot in a tank engagement" Topic

Wolf +1

Mobius,
Yes, you could abstract the first shot to a die roll. That would be more appropriate for games that use platoon stands rather than 1:1 models. However, I've found that using the OODA Loop and 1 second turn increments for timing we get some interesting interaction in a 1:1 game .

Example: A moving Panther comes into the LOS on the flank of a buttoned up T-34/85 sitting in the open on turn #57. They both perform a Situational Awareness Check to determine when their crew will detect and go into action. The Panther has him in his frontal arc and is unbuttoned so no Engagement Delay and his crew goes into action. He sees that he has most likely surprised the T-34 so he can take the time to decel and stop, lets say 4 turns/seconds. Unknown to the Panther, the T-34 has an 8 turn/second Engagement Delay before noticing the Panther on turn #65. On turn #61 the Panther stops and can take up to 8 turns of aim time for maximum accuracy which he decides to do. He'll fire on turn #69. On turn #65 the T-34 now is aware of the Panther and sees the gun is pointed right at him, he knows he has seconds to react. He gives his driver an order to move out which he does with no delay (assuming the engine was already running). Now rather than a sitting target he's moving. If the T-34 can get to a hull down position or out of the LOS before turn #69 (he'll be moving at about 10-12m/second) he could be safe.

But if he was going to disappear before the Panther shoots the Panther player could use the "Hasty Shot" to shoot sooner with a 100m accuracy penalty for each turn/second shooting sooner.

Maybe the T-34 was sitting in the open for a reason. As soon as the Panther came into view there was a Russian anti-tank gun concealed and waiting in ambush. The Panther being flanked may have an Engagement Delay of 5-10 turns. The anti-tank gun probably no Engagement Delay (over watching where the Panther appeared) and could shoot in 6-8 turns, sooner using a Snap Shot. If the anti-tank gun shoots, hits and penetrates while the Panther is still in his Engagement Delay the first clue of the anti-tank gun is an AP round bouncing around the inside of his nice Panther doing all kinds of nasty to the crew and equipment.

The timing synchronizes all units to the same turn. Players record their future Action Turn and as turns numbers are announced sequentially when it matches a units Action Turn play stops and ALL units with an Action Turn now executes their order, results are determined immediately, and the player goes back to Observe in his loop to determine his next order and the future Action Turn it will be executed.

The games uses a playable simultanous movement system that synchronizes movement rate and rate of fire so there are no special opportunity fire rules.

This may look complicated but I've played this with 12-18 year old kids that had no war gaming experience. The OODA Loop is a natural way to approach problem solving so you don't need to teach it. One die roll, add or subtract a few numbers, add that to the current game turn and that's your future Action Turn to execute your order which handles initiative determination and gives split-second results.

Reading the data card and knowing where the information is and how to use it may take awhile but like any other game, once you get the basics it gets much easier.

Wolfhag

Mobius,
I checked my Panther data card gun chart and I've got the 75L70 a base 60% for a veteran crew ranging shot at 900m and 70% for an Ace crew. Ranging fire uses a 20% range estimation error in my formula.

Against moving targets I use a modified version of an equation the British came up with which takes into account the target speed, aspect and time of flight of the round.

Accuracy penalties use the D20 hit # at a longer range in 100m increments, not a die roll modifier. An accuracy bonus like for a large target or an Ace crew use a range closer than the true target range.

Wolfhag

@ Wolfhag. Yes, a 2.5 x 2m target with a 20$ range error would probably have a 60% chance of first round hit at that range. I use a tank sized target of 2.92 m x 2.54 m with a 14% range error for the TZF-12a per my sight algorithm. Which gives a 70% chance up to 980m.

Interesting. I'm giving Ace crews a 15% RE error, Veteran crews 20%, and Poor crews 25%. Add 5% more if buttoned up unless you have a scissors periscope or similar. Range finders are 10% RE error.

I give the gun sights a Mil value for an aiming error somewhat based on the type, quality and magnification.

The more detailed version of the rules takes the base MPI accuracy and randomizes it with a D20 roll. Target size is determined using about 40% of the target height (somewhat based on total area). If the final shooting MPI accuracy (randomized base MPI) is <= the target size you get a hit.

This method gives a more detailed result then just a hit or a miss.

Wolfhag

I no longer give any bonus or penalty for firing per crew quality. I used to do that but I now focus the game on the platoon level and don't track to that level of detail. The crew qualities now only pertain to morale. Plus, both sides would always know which tank contained the tank aces and which not.

The computer game that uses Panzer War rules does have individual tank gunnery adjustments as it gives awards to individual tank achievement in campaigns.

At the platoon level, there is more of an abstraction for some factors. Crew quality is important in my game because of the split-second timing in 1:1 combat and with all things being equal, the better crew will go through his OODA Loop more quickly seizing the initiative to act/shoot first.

Plus, both sides would always know which tank contained the tank aces and which not.

That can be a problem when labeling and numbering tanks but it can be overcome. Since there are some timing variables and player options a Poor could fire before an Ace crew if the Poor crew used a Snap Shot and the Ace crew did not. That involves keeping the accuracy values and die rolls unknown to the opposition.

We also allow players to "Hold Fire and Track" his target when it gets to his Action Turn to shoot and shoot in any future turn with no additional delay (there are no unit activations). This allows the unit to acquire a target at long range and then shoot when he gets within range, presents a flank shot, stops moving or gets close enough to a range marker to be ranged in. This allows concealed units to coordinate and trigger an ambush with all of them firing at the same time. It is almost impossible to know the crew quality.

Wolfhag

From Zaloga Pershing in Korea:

The duel near the Obong-Ni Ridge also reinforces a conclusion of operational research on tank-vs.-tank fighting in World War II: the tank that sees the enemy first and fires first is the most likely winner of the duel. A study of US tank engagements in Korea concluded that the M26 had an effectiveness rating of 33.1 when firing first, but only 0.5 when firing second in tank duels (combat effectiveness was assessed as the ratio of tank losses vs. tank kills along with the relative number of enemy and friendly tanks). Not surprisingly, tanks in a defensive position consistently had a significant advantage in tank duels since they tended to locate and engage first against an approaching opponent. Overall, tanks firing from defensive positions tended to be three times more effective in the US case, and two times more effective in the case of the North Koreans.

Wolfhag

Sounds about right to me.