Help support TMP


"The Tiger 1 Tank Purchased by Japan" Topic


15 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the WWII Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

World War Two on the Land

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Ruleset


Featured Showcase Article


Featured Workbench Article

Warmodelling 20mm WWII Finnish Painting Walkthrough

Artmaster Studio shows how to paint Finnish soldiers in 20mm.


Featured Profile Article

Council of Five Nations 2010

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian is back from Council of Five Nations.


910 hits since 9 Dec 2019
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2019 10:09 p.m. PST

Of possible interest?

PDF link


What interesting what if wargame…


Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 3:37 a.m. PST

Very much so. It really does illustrate that the relationship between Germany and Japan was not on the Lease-Lend basis of US (even pre entry to the war) and British Empire.

Commercial considerations dominated and just one illustration of how little co-operation there was.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 6:33 a.m. PST

They were political rather than military allies and relations were coloured by mutual incomprehension and racial disdain.

Legion 410 Dec 2019 8:50 a.m. PST

That really is the bottom line … both were were extremely racist, xenophobic, etc.

I don't think the Tiger I would have been very useful in most of places the IJFs fought. Along with the maintenance considerations, they may have ended up being used as pillboxes on the Mainland.

Bigby Wolf10 Dec 2019 10:51 a.m. PST

… both were were extremely racist, xenophobic, etc.

One still is …

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 11:31 a.m. PST

Which one…? (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Legion 410 Dec 2019 3:49 p.m. PST

That's classified …

ThePeninsularWarin15mm10 Dec 2019 5:16 p.m. PST

It would seem you all have either never seen or are simply being ridiculous because you assume no one will call you out for it. WWII propaganda during WWII was incredibly racist and Disney tried to lead the pack. Plenty of racist cartoons that if you search for, you can still find. At least the Japanese and Germans tried to keep it confined to the military and adults whereas the Americans were all too proud to have it played in movie theaters in…. you know, like cowboys killing Indians as if they're mosquitoes.

Appears the propaganda worked well as you all still hate and don't even see it.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 5:34 p.m. PST

Well that's us told

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 7:16 p.m. PST

Are you really saying we have not changed and are just as racists as back then? World was very different, friend. Stakes were pretty high, too. We'd just been knifed in the back at Pearl Harbor, and the Nazi's were rolling over Europe and Russia.

Easy to look back after 75 years and make judgements from your high horse.

Legion 411 Dec 2019 8:18 a.m. PST

WWII propaganda during WWII was incredibly racist and Disney tried to lead the pack. Plenty of racist cartoons that if you search for, you can still find. At least the Japanese and Germans tried to keep it confined to the military and adults whereas the Americans were all too proud to have it played in movie theaters in…. you know, like cowboys killing Indians as if they're mosquitoes.
Hindsight is 20/20.

you all still hate and don't even see it.
I worked with members of the German BW in West Germany in the '80s. I held no ill will to them.

And even Japan had some of their officers at US Army Parachute School while I was there in the early '80s. I held no ill will towards them. The JSDFs sent their tanks to do maneuver training in the 9ID Yakima training area in Washington State in the '80s.

As well we had a some American Indians in the Rifle Co. in the 101. '80-'83. I had none of those "racists" feelings that were prevalent in WWII and shortly afterwards. Or even back in US history during the various US Indian Wars. In the early days of the forming of the USA. And that went on thru to the early 1900s.

My people didn't come to the US until the early 1900s. From Europe landing in NYC. So I can't claim anything that went on before that.

My girlfriend in the 101 was a Parachute Rigger. Her mama was from Osaka, her daddy USAF. I can certainly can tell you I held no ill will to her, her sister or her mom.

So please don't call me racist …

Now who I do hold ill will towards ISIS, the Taliban, AQ, BH, AS, any jihadi terrorists, etc., who wants to kill me/us because I/we don't believe as they do.

Murvihill15 Dec 2019 7:42 a.m. PST

"…At least the Japanese and Germans tried to keep it confined to the military and adults…" Except for the children of Jews, gypsies, Slavs, Chinese, Philippinos and anyone else they deemed inconvenient. Really, the moral equivalent argument doesn't work with WW2.

Legion 415 Dec 2019 9:08 a.m. PST

thumbs up

Mark 116 Dec 2019 4:44 p.m. PST

At least the Japanese and Germans tried to keep it confined to the military and adults whereas the Americans were all too proud to have it played in movie theaters…

Really?

The Germans kept it confined to military and adults?

Ever hear of Schaeffler? A big player in the automotive industry, known for a variety of products related to suspension and ride. One of the Schaeffler group companies, FAG, invented the ball bearing, and was famously bombed by the USAAF in 1943.

Schaeffler group acquired the tires business of Continental about 15-18 years ago. When the auto industry experienced a downturn soon thereafter, they applied to the German government for some financial assistance. But there was this problem… see, the company was family owned since it's inception, and that same family, with that same business (though under a different name at the time) had used human hair shorn from inmates in the deathcamps at Auschwitz-Birkenau to produce insulated linings for winter boots (and some sources say for auto upholstery, though I am less confident in that). After the war, some 1.9 tons of human hair with measurable traces of Zyklon-B (the chemical used in the Auschwitz gas chambers) were found in their warehouses.

The German government had some trouble financing that family's business endeavors, as their business empire was largely built up in the post-war era from profits made during the war, when they were harvesting the remains of murdered Jewish, Romani and Slavic civilians as an industrial raw material.

So if you are suggesting that the Germans kept their racism confined to the military, or that the same level of racism suffused the US war effort, I would suggest your case is a bit … weak.

That's not to say that there weren't racist elements in US society and propaganda. Indeed there were. But equating the two is ignorant at best, with no mention of what it may be if not born of ignorance, which is notably worse…

One still is …

The hierarchy of races is still a prevalent theme in Japanese culture, or at least it was when I traveled there frequently (more than 25 trips) some 20-25 years ago.

We had one VP in the manufacturing group of our company who was from India. When he traveled to Japan (where our manufacturing bought hundreds of millions of dollars of output from several large factories), he would be treated with many forms of traditional Japanese courtesy. At some point, he would be offered a trip to the hot baths (a Japanese custom almost as deeply ingrained as the Finns' saunas). He stopped accepting the invitations after the first few times, because it always played out the same way.

He would be invited to the baths. He would enter with his host, disrobe along with his host, and be washed with soap and brush by an attendant before entering the large communal tub of steaming hot water. Then his host would suddenly get an urgent call he had to take, and bowing with all embarrassment make his way to a side room. Our VP would enter the tub. All the others in the tub would smile and nod. But within moments they would mumble some excuse and leave. He would sit alone in the communal tub for however long he chose. Then he would get up to dry off, and his host would almost immediately return offering all sorts of excuses.

His hosts never once got into a tub with him, and the unknown others in the communal tub when he entered never stayed more than 2 minutes. He always wound up alone in this famously accepted social bonding scenario. His boss, our Sr. VP of Operations, who was very British, always recounted the happy experience of sitting in the tub and relaxing with his hosts. White man in the tub = OK. Brown man in the tub = find some excuse because not OK. It was unmistakable.

It became clear in our company that white guys got one level of treatment, Indian and Persian guys got another, and Chinese guys (there were many) got yet a third. And the women received in all cases a different level yet again.

I have never seen that in Germany. I have always seen there that business etiquette is business etiquette, and guests are treated by their hosts with careful attention to courtesy. Although Americans often receive a less formal version than others, which I perceive as almost an uncomfortable deference to American preferences, as we tend to be a rather casual society.

This message may not reflect the opinions of TMP management. I alone am responsible for the contents of this editorial. Unless I'm not. Your tankage may vary.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Legion 417 Dec 2019 8:38 a.m. PST

Good intel again Mark.

And very good story about how sadly racism and sexism is still very much around in many places.

But really all we have to do is turn on the News.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.