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"Kursk legacy: Will there ever be another massive" Topic


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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2019 8:57 p.m. PST

…tank battle?

"Before dawn on 5 July 1943 explosions lit up the Russian sky and the earth shook to a huge bombardment. As the sun rose, waves of German panzers began rolling across fields of sunflowers and wheat. The greatest tank battle in history was underway.

The Battle of Kursk pitted almost 3,000 German tanks against more than double that quantity of Soviet heavy armour.

Hitler delayed the offensive – codenamed Operation Citadel – to wait for the arrival of the new Panther. It gave the Russians plenty of time to dig formidable defences and concentrate their own armoured units…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo FingerandToeGlenn Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Dec 2019 9:54 p.m. PST

Yes, during the 6 Day War.

4th Cuirassier10 Dec 2019 5:34 a.m. PST

~3,000 each was the total orbat but what was the largest actual face off?

Tgunner10 Dec 2019 5:34 a.m. PST

Desert Storm was quite the armor fest too. My division alone sported several hundred AFVs by itself. We were hardly alone.

Legion 410 Dec 2019 7:52 a.m. PST

Yes, I'd think Desert Storm and before that the '73 Arab-Israeli War. I think in '73 more AFVs were used than in '67, IIRC.

Fred Cartwright10 Dec 2019 10:06 a.m. PST

It wasn't even the largest tank battle in WW2. A lot of the myths about Kursk and particularly the fight around Prokhorovka have been busted in recent years.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 10:33 a.m. PST

Glup!….


Amicalement
Armand

4th Cuirassier10 Dec 2019 1:30 p.m. PST

It's a good thing Peter Hofschroer never took an interest in WW2. If he had, Germany would have won it by now.

Fred Cartwright10 Dec 2019 4:10 p.m. PST

If he had, Germany would have won it by now.

I can see it now "World War Two the German Victory!" No doubt the cover up would have been Monty's fault this time.

14th NJ Vol Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 4:23 p.m. PST

Wasn't the battle of Brode in 1941 larger?

Green Tiger11 Dec 2019 1:18 a.m. PST

There were some pretty big tank battles in the Indo-Pakistan War too…

Marcus Brutus11 Dec 2019 10:29 a.m. PST

It wasn't even the largest tank battle in WW2. A lot of the myths about Kursk and particularly the fight around Prokhorovka have been busted in recent years.

What tank battles are you think of Fred that compare with Kursk? Kursk is a campaign not a battle so it may be we are talking apples and oranges in this subject. Prokhorovka certainly ranks high in the annals of armoured warfare (even when demythologized) in various analytics.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2019 10:42 a.m. PST

Good point!.


Amicalement
Armand

Murvihill15 Dec 2019 6:31 a.m. PST

The southern front battles in Barbarossa 1941 had massive numbers of tanks. Depending on how small you slice the battles up you can make them all smaller than Kursk, but it would probably take some creative accounting.

Fred Cartwright15 Dec 2019 3:00 p.m. PST

What tank battles are you think of Fred that compare with Kursk?

Well the battle of Brody is reckoned to be the biggest concentration of tanks in a single battle. Even at the biggest estimates for Prokhorovka Brody has twice as many tanks.

Kursk is a campaign not a battle so it may be we are talking apples and oranges in this subject.

Well if we are being pedantic the operation is Citadel not Kursk! Citadel has a lot of tanks, but at the very least it is 2 separate battles, the battles in the north and south being completely separate.

Marcus Brutus15 Dec 2019 6:30 p.m. PST

Operation Citadel is the German code name for the Battle of Kursk. Whether we are obliged to use this term to describe the campaign around Kursk, which includes massive Russian forces, is questionable. I don't think Brody and Prokhorovka are equivalent comparisons. Brody is a multi day campaign and Prokhorovka is a one day battle. Certainly the concentration of armour at Prokhorovka makes it unique. My recollection is that the Russians had a 100 AFVs per kilometer for this battle. Add in huge amounts of artillery and aircraft and we have a truly epic battle. Plus we are also dealing with mature forces both sides that intensifies the context in a way that was missing in 1941.

Fred Cartwright16 Dec 2019 8:13 a.m. PST

Operation Citadel is the German code name for the Battle of Kursk. Whether we are obliged to use this term to describe the campaign around Kursk, which includes massive Russian forces, is questionable.

Well quite a lot of campaigns are known by the code name the attackers gave it. Market Garden for example. Calling it the Kursk campaign is a bit misleading as the fighting never reached Kursk!

I don't think Brody and Prokhorovka are equivalent comparisons. Brody is a multi day campaign and Prokhorovka is a one day battle.

Well that depends on whether you limit it just to the single day battle between the SS Panzer Corps and the Soviets or included the actions over several days including 11th PD and III Panzer Corps, in which case the 2 battles are very similar and Brody is the larger.

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