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"Treacherous war heroes." Topic


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Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2019 5:56 a.m. PST

Lζrdalske lette infanterikompani has an intersting backstory.

link

Kevin C Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2019 6:08 a.m. PST

Great miniatures and an interesting story. I like the way you have pursued a project incorporating your Norwegian interest. Also, the older I get the more I appreciate skirmish level actions. I grew up in northwest Arkansas and like Norway during the Napoleonic Wars, northwest Arkansas during the American Civil War lends makes a great setting for skirmish level games. Thank you for posting these images and the accompanying write up. These are the types of post that make the Miniatures Page an interesting place to visit.

Kevin

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2019 6:22 a.m. PST

Thanks, the main problem is the lack of easily accessible sources. Most of it is still hidden away in archives. I just found out about these guys as I googled thanks to an 11-year-old news article about them because of the bicentennial of the battle of Trangen.

Even uniform sources are hard to get. There is one book, but it's quite old and expensive. Helion & Co are coming out with a book on the Dano-Norwegian army in the spring, I just hope it deals with the Norwegian army in detail.

Rittmester Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2019 2:10 p.m. PST

Thanks, very nice!
That company did some raids with great success, but was also mauled once due to poor guard duty/discipline. However, the sources easily available are few as you say.

Swampking10 Dec 2019 11:28 p.m. PST

The newest uniform books should be available in Norway. One was published a few years ago and the best resource for Norwegian uniforms was published by the Defence Museum back in 1992.

The best source for the Nap. Norwegian army was published in 1945.

Here is a list for all of you Nap. Norwegian Army fanatics of the books I have:

Bibliography of the Norwegian Campaigns of 1808 and 1814

H. Angell – Syv-aars Krigen [published in 1914].

G. Bjorlin – Norska Kriget 1814 [published in 1893]

J. Mankell – Falttaget i Norge ar 1814 [published in 1887]

O. Lindback-Larsen – Den Norske Haer og 1814 [published in 1945]

H. Holm – Med Plotons! Hoire-Sving! Marsch! Marsch! Norsk taktikk og stridstekritk pa begymelsen av 1800-tallet med hovedvekt lagt pa fotfolket [published in 1991]

D. Schnitler – Blade af Norges Krigshistorie [published in 1895]

C. Sorensen – Kampen Om Norge I aarene 1813-1814 [published in 1871]

E. Aagaard – Den Norske Haer I Dansketiden: Et Billedhefte [published in 1992]


Most of these books are available (or were) from antikvariat.net – THE source for old books from Scandinavia.

If anyone has any questions about the organization or uniforms of the 1808 or 1814 Norwegian-Swedish Wars, just email me at: jestarnes66@gmail.com and I'll help all I can.

Cheers,

Eric

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2019 1:03 a.m. PST

1992 is quite old, Perry has released Norwegian specific grenadiers based on the newest sources. None of the Norwegian people seems to have had access to whatever sources Perry used, as Norwegian reenactors still use the wrong grenadier hat.

Swampking11 Dec 2019 5:33 a.m. PST

Well, the Danes released a book in 2015, entitled "Kongens Klaeder" by Karsten Skjold Petersen, who is the head researcher at the Danish Armory Museum and it was based on Danish and Norwegian archives (including the regulations). He shows the same headgear for the Norwegian grenadiers as the 1992 book (a hat inspired by the Potemkin helmet). If the reenactors are using the bearskin, then yep, that's wrong. I assume you used the Perry figures for the Trondhjemske grenadiers, right? They look like the grenadiers in the 1992 book. ;)

It's been known since the late 1980s what the Danish/Norwegian Nap. grenadiers wore as headgear. Heck, Miniature Figurines released 15mm Nap. Danish grenadiers back in the late 1980s in the correct headgear. Andreas Bloch used the wrong headgear (a bearskin) on his grenadier and in several paintings for the "Syv Ars Krig" book but he later corrected himself in several illustrations later. The Perrys could have copied the Miniature Figurines minis or just wrote to the Norwegian Defence Museum (like I did) and asked them what was the appropriate headgear for 1808 grenadiers. The research nor the regulations have changed, so what's the problem with the 1992 Aargaard book?

You must like old sources too, as you used on your page for the Laerdalske lette ko. a painting by Andreas Bloch painted back in the late 1890s/early 1900s (he died in 1917) and it's accurate. The 1992 book is from the Norwegian Defence Museum and the author was a director there. I don't think that the uniform info or regulations for the 1808 or 1814 Norwegians have changed in the past 20 years or so, have they?

There are no new sources that I'm aware of – unless there's an eyewitness account of the 1808 Norwegian War or 1814 War and the uniforms that were worn that I'm not aware of (entirely possible). If you know of anything new, please let me know. ;)

Frankly, I find your criticism of the Aagaard book a bit shocking. Have you seen it? Have you read it? I've been to the Norwegian Defence Museum and written to them numerous times and the info contained in Aagaard's book (it's more of a booklet) is accurate according the to the regs. and what we know of the supply situation at that time.

Do you have any other info that's not listed? If so, please list authors and titles. ;)

Cheers,

E.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2019 7:04 a.m. PST

No, I haven't read it. I only read that the Potemkin hat was based in very recent research and I assumed Norwegian reenactors of the 90s and 2000s had had access to a book from 92, hence I assumed the book made the same mistake as the reenactors did. That was my mistake, I apologise.
I'll get a hold of the book you recommended, as even basic uniform details seem to be almost completely impossible to find online.

Swampking11 Dec 2019 7:18 a.m. PST

Hey Gunfreak,

No worries, my man! :)

The Norwegians are a 'fringe' army anyway. I started my research on them thanks to Dan Schorr back in the 1980s! From what I've seen, Andreas Bloch's illustrations (with the exception of the grenadiers) are accurate and anyone who's interested in the Norwegian campaigns of 1808 or 1814 would be well-advised to look at his work.

Oh, forgot to mention that the Miniature Figurines Danish grenadiers ain't exactly accurate. The cap should have a flat back but doesn't. The Essex Miniatures 1803-1806 Prussian grenadiers have the accurate style (it's a little tall and doesn't have a bag but … and the uniform coat is off – Danes/Norwegians didn't have turnbacks, except officers),so the Miniature Figurines is more useful for Russians in the Potemkin uniform. ;)

The Norwegian grenadiers wearing the bearskin and the bearskin itself is one of those "it looks cool" kind of things that reenactors do and I think the bearskin is easier to come by or manufacture than the more accurate hat! :) . I think the bearskin was worn for a brief time but after the 1808 War and then it was abandoned for the shako before the 1814 War, sometime in 1810, if memory serves. I'll have to go back and read Lindback-Larsen (from 1945) and see what he says (though I can't remember if he says anything on the subject – gettin' old you know). :)

My Norwegian is a bit rusty, as I've taken up learning Polish (again, for the millionth time) and Croatian but the books I've listed above are in Norwegian and Swedish. They should be available online somewhere or in your local library, if you're in Norway or Sweden.

Like I said, if you need any help – just yell.

Oh, great paint job on both the Laerdalske Lights and Trondhjemske grenadiers! Not my scale but beautiful figs! :)

archiduque Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2019 5:37 a.m. PST

Very nice !!

Rittmester Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2019 4:33 a.m. PST

There seems to be more references to the 1814 war than to the 1808-1809 war. What is the best for the 1808-1809 war?
I have the one from Angell, so I am looking to expand on that one.
Cheers

Swampking14 Dec 2019 9:26 a.m. PST

Hey Rittmeister,

If you read Norwegian (which, if you have Angell, I guess you do), try to get the Holm book. It's got maps and descriptions of all the engagements of the 1808 War. If you read Sweish, the Generalstaben's "Svenska Krig 1808", has the best account and maps. I'll look at mylibrary, as the list is a bit dated.

Rittmester Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2019 9:50 a.m. PST

Thank you:)

Swampking16 Dec 2019 1:30 a.m. PST

I had a look at the library and I've only got 4 books on the Norwegian 1808 War – Angell, Mankell, the Generalstaben's "Svenska Krig 1808" and a pamphlet by Munthe.

If you want more info, I'd check out the Wikipedia page (in English) here:

link

and associated pages (Battle of Trangen, engagement at Berby, Battle of Prestebakke (actually 2 different engagements), etc.

If you want info on the 1808 Norwegian Army, just email and I'll send you a Word document that lists all regiments and uniform info. ;)

If you game 15mm, a better source of Norwegian grenadiers are the Miniature Figurines 1803-1806 Prussian grenadiers. The cap is a bit tall but the rest works.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2019 10:08 a.m. PST

I found this article to be very informative.
Learned quite a few things. Like swedish hussar charges happening.
link

Swampking17 Dec 2019 3:15 a.m. PST

Oh yeah, forgot that site! Thanks, Gunfreak!

The pic of the grenadiers is quite inspiring (even if the headgear is wrong). And, yep, Morner's Hussars did charge Norwegian infantry in 1808. And, not to be outdone a few years later, during the Battle of Lier in 1814, the Akershuske Mtd. Sharpshooters conducted a charge as well against Swedish infantry (as pictured by Bloch) here:

link

All in all, the 1808 and 1814 campaigns in Norway are awesome to game! Forces are small enough to be affordable (even in 25/28 mm), terrain is fascinating – a bit like Finland, lots of farms, forests, lakes, rivers, villages, wooden churches, fortifications, interesting uniforms and generals (some are aggressive, others plodding and timid), lots of potential for fictitious units (I'm a strong believer in raising your own units), and for once, a war the Swedes could have actually won, if their generals would have been better.

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