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"10e Legere 1804-05 (new wargame unit)" Topic

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Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2019 7:52 p.m. PST

My 4e Corps d'Armée 1st Division includes as 'avant garde' the regiment of the 10e Legere.

Long time in the Corps from the Camp du Boulogne, I am yet to start painting my old minifigs in the new style and organisation format, having completed most of the 1st and 3rd Divisions as they were organised at Austerlitz.

Problem is, there are no definitive references that I have found for this regiment, and my sources such as Rousellot, Bucquoy, Toussaint, Detaille and many online, virtually always depict uniforms for 1808-10-12 than earlier; or are at least contradictory over details. La Sabretache notes their use of carabinier bearskins.

Because I'm being pedantic about them in 'accurate' uniforms I have used in my agile pragmatic approach to completing the army, discretionary calls in order-
1- exact details where known;
2- earlier Revolution/ Consular uniform extended to early empire;
3- adopt a later variation known for the unit with slide back effect;
4- adopt a known uniform for the next nearest known accurate regiment.

I've taken the plain 1801 shako with front plume for chasseurs. Where known I'll throw in a sapeur; porte-aigles are always NCO's etc.

Given the 'swap' rate (slow or fast) of uniform colour, detail, embellishments and equipment, who has anything on this unit for me?
All help appreciated,
regards davew

von Winterfeldt05 Dec 2019 6:25 a.m. PST

I've taken the plain 1801 shako with front plume for chasseurs.

I wouldn't opt for a plume at the front, but for the side, as ample contemporary prints show them like this for 1804 – 1806 – includings secondary sources you cite.

A book seemingly forgotten todays, is

Quennevat : Les vrais soldats de Napoléon, it was once dirt cheap on second hand market.

For what did you opt for shako plates and buttons? Brass?

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2019 3:09 p.m. PST

Thanks vw
Of course you are correct about side plumes. I've already 'kitbashed' all my other lights with side plumes/ falling horehair on bicorne (Bn des Tirailleur du Pô) or 1801 shako (both Bns 26e Legere and Tirailleur Corse).

As Junots corps d'elite @the 'Camp' from 1802 were issued nice clean new shakoes and equipment I'd wager the proximity was enough that their 'look' was taken on by someone as administratively astute as brother Soult, also adjacent to St.Omer.

1801 shakoes with either small silver diamond plate at front; or button, cocarde and aurore lace strap front or side. Removing extant cords was a PIA so I recast some clean shakoes and replaced heads etc. Did same on a regiment of Chasseur a Cheval as well. Not perfect but no longer looks as 'samey'. (I went on that detour a long while ago, hence my slackness at getting a 'straight' unit painted!

Hence, my 10e Legere will look more 'traditional' in uniform style to what gamers expected to see. Waiting definition, knowing that according to Rousellot there were many legere regiments that still used brass button/ metalware, I haven't formed an opinion. A bit like the cuffs and flaps- some legere adopted pointed plain blue piped white; others maintained standard line designs until mide-Empire took over. I'm not at all convinced by yellow cuffs/flaps for voltigeurs (different subject I know).

Yes I recall the book. Even in '84 it was pricey? or unobtainable, so I'd completely forgotten about it. I still haven't catalogued my own resource collection!
cheres wine

von Winterfeldt06 Dec 2019 2:16 a.m. PST

Yes buttons and shako plates – a difficult subject, could be tin buttons but brass shako plates as the manuscript d' Otto shows for the 9e légère in 1808.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2019 4:54 p.m. PST

Thanks vw, I'd have thought there 'could be' more information out there, but I guess not.
I'll document my version of the 10e Legere and then we'll see what drops out- always the way.

I have a few units to complete in part before I get to start the regiment AND its General commander. (Generally (sic)) I've adopted the principle men should never be left unled- even lead ones! Salut winkpopcorn

von Winterfeldt11 Dec 2019 2:03 p.m. PST

here a link about

10e légère


Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2019 5:25 p.m. PST

Yeah thanks been there… great info on the Camps and effort put into training soldiers to become sea-worthy; sailing. rowing etc. and handling various naval cannon and marine/ ship security etc,; all of which gives credibility to the overall 'veteran status' of the Grande Armées various units.

But the details again still missing on uniforms; and those P/shopped 'Model soldier' (artist temporarily escapes me) graphics are bad- no way I've ever seen a two colour pompom body- it's just not possible the way they were made in the first place.

Another note; Knotel known as bullet-proof artistry, now acknowledged to have made some errors when his/their sources were re-examined, gives red cuffs pointed, whereas the Martinet prints shows standard blue.

Also two artists conflict over the same 1810-12 period of pointed or standard Swedish cuffs.

I'm going with pointed blue cuff piped white as the most common early habit; distinctives all the same as 1807+ but without the fancy brass scale epaulettes.

Cheers again_d

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP17 Dec 2019 4:52 p.m. PST

I've reassessed earlier 'assignment' of troops and agree with vw that side-plumed shakoes are the predominant legere headdress at this epoch.

In fact, what I thought I had done in 'assignment'- grouping the unit with figures up to 5 years ago (!), wasn't. They are all drooping horsehair and upright left-side plumes. I'd left options open by storing both shako 'elites' and bearksin/ colpack versions, but I'm refining those down to just bearskins for carabiniers.

'Campaign' variations will include stripped bearskins and grey/blue overalls for some carabiniers but voltigeurs* in side plumed (green tipped yellow) shako only.

In the meantime I'll decide upon specific 'command' and tete du colonne figures, again the terrible business of specific distinctive/ colour attribution imperils!


*The 10e Legere being a part of the St.Omer/ Boulogne camp since 1803 (Soult 4e Corps d'Armee).

Prince of Essling21 Dec 2019 6:13 a.m. PST

Petits Soldats de Strasbourg has later uniforms for 10e Legere which you could draw on for tete de colonne:




The second plate is labelled 100 days – there another which is exactly the same but labelled 1809 but I cannot find it at present….

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP25 Dec 2019 3:39 p.m. PST

Thanks PoE
I appreciate the info and yes I do consider 'linearity' in uniforms to be a real thing.

I'd seen the first but not the Nicollet set before now.

I tend to have a lower value for authenticity* of such plates because they may have been and were reproduced (original lithos) and recoloured simply for sale to anyone without caring about the accuracy (or originals). (Martinet plates being another great hoax source).

And Cent-Jours isn't a period that I regularly research either. A decade and a restoration being a long way from 1805, malheureusement.

**I learned this lesson the hard way, at not too much cost, when I bought some loose plates purported to be 'originals' in Paris but my publisher friends extinguished enthusiasm quickly by pointing out (and taking me to la sabretache library to view THE ORIGINALS) they were 19thC/ repros- good but not "originals".

I'll probably stick closer with 1809 standard colours I'd say on 1805 attributes uniforms. I reviewed Bucquoy again and even his lack of specifics points to black hole about the regiment.
cheers d

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