"Burgundian Wars" Topic

Can anyone recommend good books, in english (well, maybe french, but preferably english) on the wars Burgundy fought with her neighbours in the late 15th century? Love the period look, but WotR doesn't excite me. Have the Osprey on burgundy, of course, but I'd like a lot more depth.

Have a look at the bibliography at the end of this article

link

The Burgundian Ordinance of Charles the Bold
Pat Mcgill et al.
Freezywater Publications

Is highly recomded as it gives you an excellent account of Charles war with the Swiss and the siege of Neuss.

Charles the Bold
Richard Vaughn
Boydell Press. 2002

Richard Vaugh has a wholes eries of biographies on the Dukes of Burgundy which should be up yout street.

Is also good, and features information on Charles' war with the llegois rebels and his conquest of Brabant and Guelders.

WOTR does not excite you, but it has evetything a wargamer could want. Heroic personalities, treachery and foreign intervention.

"WOTR does not excite you, but it has evetything a wargamer could want. Heroic personalities, treachery and foreign intervention"

Doesn't "excite" me either, due to it being a "civil" affair. Brit on Brit. Freezywater book sounds good though,

Fair enough.

It was a fairly civil affair unless you happend to a nobleman on the loosing side, in which case your you were for the chop.

The freezywater book also has a colour section showing the standards of the captains and commanders.

Freezywater book available online at link

"but it has evetything a wargamer could want"

Pike blocks! Great horking massive swiss pike blocks with attitude!

Actually, I don't know why it doesn't either. Played and enjoyed kingmaker enough in my youth. And I have modelled at least one scenerio off that battle in the fog the name of which escapes me.

"Charles le Temeraire", Jean-Pierre Soisson, Editions Grasset, Paris, 1997.

"Charles le Temeraire; Un homme et son reve", Anne le Cam, Editions In Fine. Ozoir-la-Ferriere, 1992.

"La mort de Charles le Temeraire; 5 janvier 1477", Pierre Frederix, Editions Gallimard, Paris, 1966

WotR fails to excite me as well. I have often thought it should be renamed to the Scuffle of the Roses, as they went on so long and had such relatively little activity outside the major battles. But perhaps I haven't researched it enough.

Love that time period anyway, currently using pre Ordonnance Burgundians, but will morph them to Ordonnance Burgundians very soon.

C. Brusten has published a lot of articles and and a book on the Burgundian armies of Charles the Bold, both the pre-ordonnace army as weel as the ordonnace army.

It's a bit funny that the Burgundian Ordonnace army which was a huge failure in real life is rated so highly in many wargames ruels such as DBM and Medieval Warfare while the earlier Burgundian armies of John the Fearless, Philip the Good and Charles the Bold are generaly treated as a 2nd rate force despite winning just about every battle fought prior to 1470.

Anyone have some decent links to photos of armor, uniforms, banners, etc. for the period?

I think there is a museum in Belgium with a lot of armor and other Burgundian stuff on display, but I have been unable to find the info on the net. I was hoping they might have some photos for virtual viewing, and/or a photo album of their collection for sale.

The two books advised by Georgem are probably the only ones you need. They are both very good, and with more dept then the Osprey. Highly recommended!

Mako13, I live in Belgium but have never heard of this museum. I would be very interested to see it, if it exists. I will ask for it at my club (Tin Soldiers of Antwerp). If it does exist, someone will know about it…

Mako 13, are you thinking of the Chateau de Grandson in Switzerland, which still contains all the Burgundian booty from the 1476/7 battles?

I still like the WotR because of the great horking masses of archers and… treachery! Lots of it. Perfect for wargaming campaigns given the unreliable and treasonous- if lovable- swines I gamed with in days of yore.

Have to love those Burgundian "uniforms", though, and the sight of a 28mm Swiss kiel en masse is superb.

Charles Oman's "Art of War in the Middle Ages" has a good section in vol. 2 about the wars of Charles the Bold and about the development of the Swiss pike phalanx.

I recall that Oman was reprinted a few years back. You might also be able to find it in a library.

Stavka, I don't think so, since I specifically remember Belgium (okay, possibly the Netherlands) as the location.

Maybe the person posting the info was mistaken, but I am 95% sure they mentioned a large collection of Charles the Bold's stuff in Belgium.

Hmmm, maybe it was French Ordonnance stuff instead, at the museum in Belgium.

Chatuex Grandson is a great place to visit, not only do you get to see some of the looted artilery, armour and weopns they also have a set of dioramas showing the battles using flats.There is a documentary in English which you can watch in a small room.

Not seen them myself, but the battlements at Morat are still intact.

The historical museum in Berne houses most of the spoils from Charles, sadly when I visted in May it was all in stioarge while tey put on an Albert Einstein exhibit, Bah! what care I for Einstein.

The Imperial Tresury of the Habsurgs in Vienna also houses portraits of the Valois line, together with the tabard of the herald of Burgundy respledant in its glory. As well as the ermine of the order of the Golden Fleece and variuos other artifacts associated with Charles.

It is funny that the Burgundian Ordonnace is actually a pretty good army in wargaming. I have had plenty of success with it in WAB, where its a very good army due to the combination of longbow, pike and knights, fighting the Swiss is a challenge.

Many players are a litle harsh on chuck, he certainly was good at organisation, and was able to control a divergent multinational force. His defeat at Grandson was due to his failure to scout the enemy position and the timely arrival of Swiss reinforcements. The Swiss chroicler Schilling admits as much and said that luck was on their side.

The Military Museum in Brussels has a collection of 15th century armour. It probably has more in storage. The best stuff by far is in Switzerland as noted. Zurich, Berne, Lucerne, Basel, Grandson and Morat plus the chateau de Vyon or is it Syon (near that place with the fountain ????)
Look out for any illustrations of the Ceasar tapestries and try to get hold of the Swiss Museum book on the Burgunder beute.
The detail on the flags is quite stupendous the Freezywater illustrations are of primary school standard by comparison. But what do you expect from the contempories of Van Eyck and Memling. Unfortunately you will have go in person. There is a superb model of the battle of Morat. Twenty odd years ago I was lucky enough to get hold of some contact sheets of some of the individual figures. Painting is not brilliant but en masse it is breathtaking.

Try this link to someone who has been link

Je Lay/ Plus Est En Vous

broken link?

Try this then

link

this is the long way round. As far as I can work out you cannot access this stuff via his website, but you might try