"Coureur de Bois: Wargamer Myth?" Topic

Jeez – never thought about it, always assuming they were present in some strength during the FIW. And yet, I can't find anything on their military usage. Explorers? Check. Traders? Check.

I use them as officers in my native forces but never whole units of them.

Discuss.

Always thought of them as very small groups of men or individuals that probably tolerated each other – but doubt they had much of an unit organization.

Only have used them as Scouts or Officers

My reading indicates that they were never officers. Nor did they lead Indians, as they had their own leaders. Seems they functioned as scouts, and there weren't many of them.

My impression was that small numbers of CdB's were part of raiding forces and not for set piece battles and provided a link between the french and their Indian allies. They would have fought beside the Indians using their tactics. I'm hoping this might provide some answers, currently in the mail:

link

There were equivalents on the other side, e.g, Natty Bumpo.

Simon Girty.

Hard to imagine that French trappers who lived with a tribe and had an Indian wife would not have gone on raids. Just mix a few in with a war and

The courier de bois were never as abundant as one might think especially by the SYW – they hit their high water mark about 1700 and changes in licensure for furs/trading meant that they were much fewer in number by the time of the SYW

Still, every SYW French North American army needs a few of them!

I'd have a few scattered amongst the various First Nations bands on the table, maybe one out of a band of say, ten figures.

That being said, there was a set of fun rules I saw in a gaming magazine for playing fur trader wars and general rules ideas for a rendezvous.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it…

Eric

Lots of speculation and opinion. Can anyone cite a period source? Bet not. :-)

I sprinkle them in with my native troops. Usually 2 or 3 in the units. When playing with cards to inflict casualties they are the face cards. Also give them a slightly better to hit modifier when shooting rifles.

Of course. CdB all had rifles. Just curious where they got them? :-)

historygamer

Hopefully this will provide some answers, my copy is in the mail:

Raiders of New France
link

I hope it's better than some of his past works. I have found his Franco-Canadian bias sometimes clouds his judgement. Fort Necessity declines to carry his work on that campaign due to historical inaccuracies, so I am told by site volunteers. Still, I'll try to keep an open mind and see if it specifically cites CdB references.

You might want to check this book out. link
Mark

In college we were part of a reenactment group that did the French & Indian War. Some were French Marines (IIRC?) and about 7 or 8 of us were CdB. My 2 cents !

Myth. The heyday of the CdB was long past. Even if it was still their heyday, they would not be organized as any type of army unit. I imagine there might be a few "woodsman" types hanging around as scouts and interpreters but, units of them, certainly not.

A myth certainly. But still fun to place a unit of CdB on my gaming table! I have a 12 figure unit (including an Indian figure or two) that fires better (with or without rifles) & moves through woods more freely than some other troop types. I know its not historical, but adds to the variety of FIW unit types. Our group uses This Very Ground for rules.

I'm currently sitting in the Braddock Inn, right beside the General's grave, and just down the road from Fort Necessity. No sign of CdB, but I'll keep you posted.;-)

Legion4. What unit?

I suspect that kind of frontiersman was, in fact, a Canadian Colonial Marine officer on service to help "manage" the Indians to accomplish French interests. Usually didn't work out well.

Natty Bumpo is a fictional character, written about by an author in the 1820s.
I've loved those stories, but my reading (Bloody Mohawk, among others) indicates that even in the AWI, rifles were virtually unknown among the locals (white and indian) of upstate NY and New England.

Hence, I can't imagine CdB having them.

Read about the French campaigns against the Chickasaw. Such troop types are included in the narrative. French frontiersmen accompanied expeditions by the northern tribes against the Chickasaw.

Year?

For a unit of CdB, how about the Mississippi Volunteers in the War of 1812? There was also a short-lived unit called the Corp of Canadian Voyageurs. Aside from the fact that they often lived among the native population, they were ultimately businessmen with people employed by them (canoe brigades). Probably easy to gather a few dozen men for a specific campaign like the siege of Prairie du Chien.

So again, most likely ad hoc, few, and rare.

So wasn't the fur trade strictly regulated by both governments? Wasn't it restricted to the Indians only, and they traded their furs with licenced traders only? Point being, if this is in fact the model, who were these people from New France some think we're wandering around? Earlier periods, maybe. Later periods, maybe. I can't comment much on the Great Lakes or far West region, but I do know that I'm the Ohio country there was no such thing as CdB wandering around. Note there were English traders in what is now present day Western PA, and Eastern/central Ohio. I can name some of them. Can anyone name a single CdB? Gist, Croghan…

Read the wiki Article it will tell you eveything you want to know

link

Basically think of the CdB as the equivalent to moonshiners for the fur idustry

What unit?

Can't remember, that in '75-'77, IIRC.

But I do remember being killed at Fort Ligonier., PA … sometime during that time period …

Might have been Jim Stamps multi-sided group, or Dumas',there was another unit that did some events in Western PA that was short-lived(CO's name was something like Tolbert), or Francis Packard's unit that did that kind of impression.

Thinking on it, there was no battle in 1975 at Ligonier, only a British encampment. It snowed on Sunday there.

Strike that. It was 1978 for the Garrison only, not 1975. 1975 there was a battle that started across the highway.

Can you refer me to a reliable, detailed source for the history of 1970s F & IW reenacting?

It's yet to be written. LoL

We know Bumpo was fictional. Simon Girty was not, however. There are plenty of examples of white men living with a tribe. It is likely that many of them trapped; metal traps were too expensive for most tribes.

Most examples of white men living with a tribe were of them being captured and adopted by a tribe – meaning they would have dressed and look just like the rest of the men.

was short-lived(CO's name was something like Tolbert)

Talbot, we were all ROTC Cadets at that time. Talbot was commissioned a 2LT as a Tanker in '77(?). Sent to Ft. Knox, KY for training. Then to an Armor Bn in the 2ID, in the ROK … IIRC … So his days of "re-enacting" were over. As was mine in about '78.

And now that I think of it, we had French Marine/Army(?) uniforms too.

I was the drum sergeant major of the 60th Regiment you were shooting at.:-)

Well I died so … I probably missed ya !

Were not coureurs du bois French or métis traders and trappers 'embedded' with up country Indians – rather than captives?

Who said they were captive? I was referring to colonist and British soldiers they captured. Can you provide any evidence of said embedded French or Canadians living with them, that also went out to raid English colonies?

Apologies, as I recently moved and don't know where all my books are, but here are a few points as I can remember them (some of which have already been touched on):

1. Coureurs de bois were simply unlicensed voyaguers. The conversation should really be about voyageurs as a whole, who did fight for their colonial empires and with Natives, even against each other as in the early 19th century when competition between the Northwest Company (the successors to the French in Montreal) and the Hudson's Bay Company spilled over into bloodshed.

2. There were two main groups of voyageurs in the Montreal trade. (The British system in the mid 18th century was quite different and operated out of Hudson's Bay.) One, with generally newer recruits (mangeurs de lard) paddled large 20-30+ foot canoes from Montreal to the Grand Portage on the northwestern shore of Lake Superior where they were met by trappers and traders (hivernants) who spend all year in the interior.

3. Voyageurs and their mixed race or Métis (pronounced "may-tee") descendants fought with and drew upon Native kinship networks throughout the pays d'en haut (Upper Canada, the Great Lakes, and beyond). These kinship networks were key to politics, trade, and war throughout the pays d'en haut and were an important part of the FIW. A good example is Charles de Langlade. (See "Masters of Empire: Great Lakes Indians and the Making of America" by Michael A. McDonnell.)

4. At the time of the FIW, the French had only a nominal presence in much of the pays d'en haut, mostly relying on voyageurs, Métis, and Native allies.

"Who said they were captive?"

Hg.-I had the impression you did.

Perhaps I missed the nuance between 'captured' and 'captive.'

See 'The Boz': Points 2 & 3.

So what documentation is there that they went on raids or fought with French forces? No offense, but I'm told by those more expert than me that white men trapping in Indian territory would have likely been killed regardless of nationality. I also think it is pretty clear in the Charles Bonin memoir and Parkman that the French never fully trusted the Indians, nor could they. Also, wasn't Langlade a Marine officer?

Also, the British system was not operated out of Hudson Bay, at least prior to the f&I war. Johnson Hall? Other licensed traders too.

Flashman – to your original question and post, you may want to think about giving those Indian units new leaders. :-)

I'm still waiting for someone to provide documentation regarding said mythical unit, or even members, taking the field of combat. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a while. :-)

Documentation? I literally recommended a nearly 400-page volume of the latest scholarship, with about 50 of those pages being endnote citations you can follow to your heart's content.

Also, if you like Osprey books, "Montcalm's Army" cites voyaguers as serving as scouts and with militia, marines, and Natives in raiding parties.

"The British System was not operated out of Hudson Bay"? The Hudson's Bay Company was chartered in 1670 and given title to all the land that drained into the bay. It's existence owes much to the fact the French in Montreal weren't interested in exploring the use of those northern routes, leading Radisson and Groseillier to go to the Brits. The Company operated from outposts on the Bay like York Factory and Fort Prince of Wales.

TheBoz:

So let's refocus on what this original thread was about, and look at what you posted to see if it supports said topic in any way.

The OP said the following:

"Coureur de Bois: Wargamer Myth?" and went on to say:

"Jeez – never thought about it, always assuming they were present in some strength (note that word) during the FIW. And yet, I can't find anything on their military usage."

Note, the general topic is wargaming, the specific topic we are looking for is to see if anything called Coureur de Bois fought in the war, and to the OP's point, in some strength.

You said:

"Coureurs de bois were simply unlicensed voyaguers. The conversation should really be about voyageurs as a whole, who did fight for their colonial empires and with Natives, even against each other as in the early 19th century when competition between the Northwest Company (the successors to the French in Montreal) and the Hudson's Bay Company spilled over into bloodshed."

Nothing in there supports the topic. I am assuming this is all your opinion, as you cite no sources. Then you said:

"There were two main groups of voyageurs in the Montreal trade. (The British system in the mid 18th century was quite different and operated out of Hudson's Bay.) One, with generally newer recruits (mangeurs de lard) paddled large 20-30+ foot canoes from Montreal to the Grand Portage on the northwestern shore of Lake Superior where they were met by trappers and traders (hivernants) who spend all year in the interior."

Again, no source cited, not that that matters as again, it is off topic of strength in the field of combat. Then you said:

"Voyageurs and their mixed race or Métis (pronounced "may-tee") descendants fought with and drew upon Native kinship networks throughout the pays d'en haut (Upper Canada, the Great Lakes, and beyond). These kinship networks were key to politics, trade, and war throughout the pays d'en haut and were an important part of the FIW. A good example is Charles de Langlade. (See "Masters of Empire: Great Lakes Indians and the Making of America" by Michael A. McDonnell.)"

Again, off topic as you have not provided any evidence of anyone taking the field of battle. The one specific person you cite, Langlade, was from a family of licensed traders in the Detroit, then later Green Bay region. His father was of the lower French-Canadian nobility class, his mother Ottawa. No where in that does it state he lived with the Indians, etc. I will assume (dangerous, I know) that his family ran a trading post, likely out of some log cabin (akin to what Faser had in present day Western-PA – it is mentioned that during the Braddock campaign they pasted his abandoned trading post).

So let's delve a little deeper into the one name you do mention:

Langlade – In his book on the Braddock expedition, Preston talks about one of the more famous paintings of the battle and on page 4 states, "Leutze (artist) depicts a single French-Canadian figure standing on a rock – perhaps meant to be the French-Ottawa officer Charles-Michel Mouer de Langalde, who later claimed to have orchestrated the entire battle, at which he was probably not even present.

Ooops. If you can find any author that knows more about the Braddock campaign, and French and Indian forces there, I sure would like to meet him. I suspect, like fabled Coureur de Bois, he doesn't exist.

On page 157, Preston goes on to state: "One French officer most likely absent (italics) at the Monongahela was Ensign (military rank – which Coureur de Bois would not have) Charles Mouet de Langlade, who is often and mistakenly given credit for orchestrating the battle against Braddock." Preston goes on to say that another iconic painting has helped perpetuate the Langlade myth, one that Langlade was only to eager to help perpetuate as well. Preston punches holes in Langlade's stories. You can find that on the top of page 158, so I'll spare you the details. Preston states that Parkman fell for Langlade's tall tales in his seminal work, "Montcalm and Wolfe."

I'll help you out though, as if you continue to read the next several pages, there are a number of names mentioned – almost all French or French-Canadian officers (commissioned) – that did take part in the battle, and had various relations with the Indians. While some were traders, many held formal commissions in the French military, none are referred to as Coureur de Bois, none were living with any of the tribes – though some may have lived in the areas as licensed traders.

Let's cut to the chase – your wargame army, do as you please. Were there units of French-Canadians running around on the battlefield – historical fact does not support that. Were French-Canadian officers present at various times? Likely. What role they played is murky at best. Did they have beards and wear buckskin fringed outfits topped off with a coonskin cap? Not in this time period. Myth, worse, bad wargaming myth.

What would they have looked like? Probably varied, given time of year, circumstances, etc. Said individuals likely wore everything ranging from their full French (Colonial Marine) uniforms for many (note that even Beaujeu was only reported to have stripped off his coat, waistcoat and shirt – likely leaving his breeches and gaiters on, perhaps with his gorget) – to being virtually indistinguishable from the Indians (clean shaven, whatever trade clothes they had on, warpaint perhaps).

The only instances I can recall of the top of my head involving French-Canadian milice fighting include at Braddock's defeat, where they all ran away (that battle was an Indian victory, plain and simple), to their ill-fated night attack at Quebec, where they started shooting each other and fled. Most milice units were used for muscle and rowing – as they weren't soldiers and they weren't usually living on the frontier, as it were.

And, again, we are looking for white men fully integrated into Indian warbands, in strength, according to the OPs question.

I'm just not seeing it, and I can't find it in any of the standard works addressing the period.

I think a few might have been scouts or embedded in the indian tribes. The men who were considered true coureur des bois were in the 17th century.These were the men that the myths were born from.
Mark