"And they say Empire is too complicated" Topic

Being like a person who just stepped on the planet, yesterday was my first experience seeing other rules from a few games going on of something other than EIII. I'm not getting the hate for complication at all now.

Welcome to Earth. I concur, and find Empire V is the rule set I return to. Personal choice, of course, but E5's rules become simpler with repeated play, as with most rules.

Condotta is right – with both Empire and Stars and Bars – so long as you are playing it regularly. It is not a casual pickup game.

The fact that other complicated rules exist does not mean that Empire is not complicated. When you play it every other weekend for years you get the hang of it. When I stepped away from it for years, it was not something that I particularly want to step back into.

We only play it a few times a year, but will always be the rules of choice in our group (and strangely enough, almost everywhere I've ever lived).

Never seen Empire being played over here in the UK. I think it's mostly a US thing. My feeling is that if your rules need a flowchart, maybe they are too complicated.

Agreed. Too complicated.

It is too complicated for me. Complication is fine if it results in something other than slowing down the game, but Empire V never did that for me. Strangely enough I've actually had my most Napoleonic games – the strategy of the interior position – playing Black Powder!

Not too complicated for me, although I preferred Empire III to V. But then I also liked From Valmy to Waterloo and Legacy of Glory. I've got Black Powder but it feels like Warhammer :)

Each to their own :)

From the era of rule writing when "historical game simulation" = "complexity"

The higher the pain, the more types of dice you had to use, the better the rules, apparently.

I remember playing E3 in the 80s and 90s in the UK, games were large and did seem to take a long time to conclude. But, it was fun at the time and it certainly captured the Napoleonic feel. I still have the rules but haven't played them for a very long time, maybe one day. Like any rules, if you haven't touched them for a while there is always skill fade.

Sorry to be so late for the party. Played Empire 5 for 25+ years and loved it. Only stopped because the old gang all moved away.

Now trying to play smaller solo battles on a dining room table.

It requires some dedication but I'm not all that bright and I figured it out.

I would get back into it in a heart beat if I could.

John

I think what I posted above did not came off as I intended. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and it requires time and effort to learn that some guys aren't ready to invest. But to be me, even though I am not a quick learner, it was worth it.

If the remark in my previous post offended anyone please accept my most heartfelt apology, that was not what I meant.

John

Marulaz1, I live in Charles Town, WV and haven't had anyone to play Empire 5 with in over 20 years. At present all my figures and rules+ are in storage due to a house fire. When things get back to normal I wouldn't mind taking a shot at a game. Maybe by then this COVID things will be on the mend.

bkim4175. Maybe some how we could give it a try. I have acoup!e of friend who would probably be interested.

John

Way back, mid 80's we used EmpireIII for a while and a breath of fresh air they were to stodgy old style Brit rules.

We combined a lot of the processes, opened up a few minds to 'historical' gaming and gained more realistic scenario based games using the campaign system.

I believe the thing is to play games with the parts you want, ignore anything too complex and 'skip' so that you learn (everybody) the good points. Other matters will fall into place.

If you can't enjoy a game when you've been beaten well, then maybe the rules won't be for you.
regards davew

SHaT1984. +1

John

I started with the original Empire in 1978. It was still raw and had problems. Empire III came out which was better. Then Empire IV which was quickly replaced by Empire V. No you can't just jump into it. But the real problem now. Is people want to get a game over FAST. Empire is a simulation. The larger the battle, the longer it will take.

Most people approach Empire III or V with a 21st century mindset, where warfare is immediate, decisive, and absolute. Way too much CPU wargaming IMHO. " Couldn't believe when Afghanistan started. The News media were HOWLING that it was taking too long. It had only been two weeks !" They forget they are simulating 19th century warfare, where the complete opposite is true. Unlike the command control we have in maneuver elements today, the Napoleonic forces were launched similar to an arrow shot from a bow. Virtually no control, once the wooden shaft is unleashed from its bowstring. Napoleonic warfare is, in reality, military chess. Like in the actual game, a good player should be able to see his moves 3-4 turns in advance. Plans need time to unfold and develop. So it is with Empire V.
I have always thought that on the tabletop, you break your opponent rather than his troops. His or her morale will control the day. For me, I stay calm and stoic. I found that time is my enemy's biggest opponent. Just like in Napoleonic warfare, you write your orders and watch your horde maneuver forward. This may take more than a couple hours to achieve. It sometimes took me two hours to maneuver my forces into a position to attack, like the day at Waterloo. During this time, your opponent has nothing to do but second guess himself. The longer the time, the more they wonder if they made the right moves. One game I believe my opponent changed orders three times in two hours of play. If, in real life, I was down at DIVARTY level during the Napoleonic wars and Division sent orders to defend, attack, and defend in that short period of time, then I would have thought they had lost their collective minds. My ammo is deployed around me in a defensive position, then I have to upload it (which takes time), then download it once again, which takes more time!
Once you commit to orders, you better steel your nerves and hold on for the ride. It is the second guessing and the telescopic time concept, that I find highlights these rules, and I just love it!

Most rules now just give that 3000 foot tall general way to much control over his or her troops. I looked at rules now and they all seem to be just a table top general with guided missiles for troops. Way too much control even for the American Civil War. Where Lincoln or Jeff Davis could telegraph their generals in minutes. Napoleonic or Seven Years War for that matter. Isn't Checkers and they certainly weren't simple.

And that is my two cents worth…

Ramrod1955. Very interesting insights there. Thank you very much.

John

Maraluz1- we have finally moved back in and I have recovered my troops. While we are still unpacking all the many boxes they sparingly filled. I should be able to break free for a game.