Help support TMP


"Clearing of the Scheldt - Options?" Topic


6 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please be courteous toward your fellow TMP members.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the WWII Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

World War Two on the Land

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Top-Rated Ruleset

FUBAR


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Showcase Article

Gaso.line's 1/48th Scale German Tank Hunters

The first sample from Gaso.line's new Master Fighter pre-painted 1/48th scale series.


Featured Workbench Article

A Soviet T-28 in 28mm

Neil Burt of Troop of Shewe tackles the Soviet T-28 in 28mm scale from Force of Arms.


Featured Profile Article

First Look: Battlefront's 15mm Cafe

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian opens the box on one of the re-released European Buildings series.


Featured Book Review


607 hits since 15 Nov 2019
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

La Belle Ruffian15 Nov 2019 4:22 a.m. PST

On Tuesday I gave a talk about the clearing of the Schedlt and capture of Walcheren to enable the opening of Antwerp at the end of November. The faliure to clear the Scheldt at the same time as capturing Antwerp has been described as a catastrophic error which prevented an end to the war by Christmas, which I'm not convinced by, but I'm interested in other thoughts.

The discussion turned to what other options existed and indeed, if a slightly early opening would have allowed for a much different end to the war. There were various suggestions and issues highlighted too:

- To mask the Channel Ports or attempt to capture them. Most are in Allied hands by the end of September but it does slows down the advance. Leaving men to mask them would see a steady drain on the Canadians though and ignoring them leaves your supply lines exposed.

- Geography. The Canadians are crossing rivers at their widest point, so bridging issues arise.

- Manning issues for the Canadians due to their volunteers only policy.

- Civilian supply considerations. Planners estimated that with the liberation of Paris around 4000 tonnes of supplies would need to be diverted each day, equivalent to seven divisions. They took 25,000 in on the first day.

- German defences. Horrocks says that he had a hundred miles of fuel in tanks to push on up to Bergen and only a division in front, had he known. The German evacuation from Breskens commences on 8 September so presumably some of these troops would be able to attack out of the Beveland peninsula. How much would 2nd Army have in place to prevent a breakout and how long might this occupy?

- Clearing the batteries. The week long capture of Walcheren is preceded by weeks of bombing and rely on the capture of Breskens in late October. If the RAF can prevent the evacuation of most of the Germans through Breskens, leaving a eve more Germans south of the Scheldt, will this operation take longer?

- Mines in the Scheldt. Ramsey starts operations on 4 November and the first ship unloads on 30 November.

Any other issues and opinions on them?

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Nov 2019 1:15 p.m. PST

Well, in my opinion the British should have driven a little bit farther from Antwerp and captured the base of the Beveland Peninsula and then the 1st Airborne drops on Walcheran Island, cutting off any escape for the remnants of 15th Army.

catavar18 Nov 2019 4:32 p.m. PST

Good question. I think bi-passing the channel ports and letting the Canadians open Antwerp en masse would be the better option.

La Belle Ruffian23 Nov 2019 7:29 a.m. PST

Thanks for the suggestions guys. How much faster do you think it's possible to get the port open for business (anything before the end of October still seems unlikely) and how much would it change the overall timeline of operations in NWE? Dropping 1st Airborne at least on Walcheren came up in the discussion and the original Operation Infatuate called for dropping airborne troops to cut the penisula north of Antwerp.

Operationally, ignoring the Channel ports and fast-tacking the Canadians north may speed up the clearing of the Breskens pocket but politically it means leaving the V1 sites and artillery shelling the UK to carry on for quite some time. Reducing the amount of German troops evacuated means they're left in the pocket, which took a month to clear as it was (with one division) and they had a fair amount of hardware if forced to fight.

There were German troops and a fair amount of flak on Walcheren already and I'm sure that more would still be able to evacuate from Breskens before any operation is launched. Given most of the evacuated 15th Army troops didn't take part in the Scheldt operations, is it the case that Horrock's major success from driving north would have been to reduce the troops and equipment in front of II British Army later in the autumn?

Does this in itself make Market Garden any more viable (and to what end?) or does pausing for Antwerp as well give Germany time to recover anyway? Lots to ponder.

Blutarski23 Nov 2019 1:28 p.m. PST

I agree with catavar (and so did Montgomery in retrospect).

If 15th Army had been prevented from crossing to the north bank of the Schedlt, it would have been entirely bagged. Not only would Antwerp have been put back into operation sooner (to everyone's great logistical benefit), but Model would have been denied the use of those elements of the 15th Army which reached the Dutch mainland proper for operations to frustrate Market-Garden.

B

La Belle Ruffian23 Nov 2019 6:13 p.m. PST

Blutarski, the question isn't simply whether 15th Army is 'bagged' though but rather 'when'? Just because they're cut off, doesn't mean they'll immediately surrender, as the battle for the Pocket (and Dunkirk only being captured in 1945) demonstrated. Can you put a a provisional date on when you think Antwerp have been in action?

I do think it's likely sooner, but probably not soon enough to have an appreciable difference before Christmas. Fewer troops to defend against Market Garden is irrelevant as by clearing the Scheldt first, the immediate danger has passed for Model and whatever the alternate Monty plan, I think the Germans have their breathing space.

Looking at the time taken against quite limited resistance, to me this doesn't come down to any one general or even field-marshal dropping the ball, but a lack of unified decision-making at the highest level and political considerations impacting too.

If the main plan is to take Antwerp then you can't take a broad front approach and reducing a pocket of up to 90,000 Germans in familar territory means giving Monty more Americans to bolster his forces and even more supplies for the hard fighting ahead. I can't see that flying without FDR saying yes, nor an insistence that Harris devotes the necessary air support.

Some things to consider:

- Hitler designates the area as a Fortress even as Antwerp is being captured. Capturing both sides is essential as 15th Army on the south side could also shell the estuary, so just taking Walcheren isn't enough.
- Allied air forces were unable to stop the German retreat across from Breskens. The best part of 80,000 troops escaped, plus equipment. I suspect some at least would get on the Beveland Penisula in time to support and stop a swift capture of Walcheren, particularly if you're trying to organise an airborne drop.
- one German division in the pocket took the Canadians five weeks to finally clear (and four to have Breskens ready to launch Infatuate from). Ostend was also used for training and launching the RM force, an option which isn't available in this scenario.
- Ramsey took nearly a month to clear the Scheldt of mines.
- I wouldn't be surprised if there was an air drop on Walcheren if the Germans didn't flood the island themselves using the canal as this would disadvantage the paratroopers far more than the defenders.

I think cutting the Beveland Peninsula is the easy part, the rest involves some hard choices and foreknowledge and planning that just weren't in evidence/available.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.