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"Are you Plantagenet, Lancaster or Tudors?" Topic


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11 Nov 2019 5:52 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:05 a.m. PST

Hello all,

In your opinion, which dynasty should have legitimately reigned over England from 1455 ?

That of Plantagenet, that of Lancaster or that of Tudors?

Green Tiger11 Nov 2019 2:30 a.m. PST

It wasn't really about opinion – not for us plebs. It wasn't a democracy, you went with your lord, unless you lived in a town in which case your corporation would tie their colours to the mast of whoever they thought would benefit them (sometimes this changed) . I was born in Kirby Muxloe which is Hastings country so I would have been a Yorkist…

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 2:59 a.m. PST

Yes, but what dynasty was legitimate to rule?

Steamingdave211 Nov 2019 3:52 a.m. PST

None of them. They all owed their claims to the illegal war carried out by that NormanFrench geezer called William.

Rabelais11 Nov 2019 4:12 a.m. PST

Personally, I question the legitimacy of any monarch who isn't directly descended from the last king of the Beaker People.

Roderick Robertson Fezian11 Nov 2019 9:06 a.m. PST

Depends. Who did the watery tart throw the sword at?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 9:48 a.m. PST

@ Steamingdave2 Please, what is a geezer?

The invasion of William (who was not French, Normandy was not French in the eleventh century) was illegal ?

So the Scandinavian invasions that preceded William's was illegal too ?

As well as the german invasions that took place before that of the Scandinavians were also illegal ?

Not to mention the invasions of the Roman who were also illegal and those of the Celts who preceded them were also illegal…

And before the Celts there was what as illegal invasion?

@Rabelais Please, what is the Beaker People?

Plantagenets are no more legitimate than Lancasters and Lancasters than Tudors?

advocate11 Nov 2019 10:20 a.m. PST

Beaker people, early bronze age invaders from the iberian peninsula. Newcomers really.
I can't argue about legitimacy where its based on primogeniture. I'm more of a syndo-anarchist commune man myself…

Rabelais11 Nov 2019 10:39 a.m. PST

If you can't trace your lineage back to a British-born trilobite, you're basically a usurper in my eyes.

55th Division11 Nov 2019 10:45 a.m. PST

Lancaster but only because I was born there

advocate11 Nov 2019 11:02 a.m. PST

More seriously, I believe the Tudors basically carried on the Lancastrian claim following the death of the most direct family members.
Given Henry VI's incapacity the Crown was up for grabs. Legitimacy doesn't come into it.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 11:15 a.m. PST

Paskal, it's Yorkist, Lancastrian or Tudor. Both the Yorkist and the Lancastrian lines were Plantagenet, basing claim on descent from Edward III--though some had clearly descended more than others. (And someone PLEASE fix that before this becomes a poll.)

As for legalities, if there had been agreement at the time over whether descent from the second son through a women ranked above or below descent from a fourth son through a male line, presumably the wars would not have continued until the Tydders--is it fifth son, twice through the female line and twice barred from the succession?--wound up on the throne by right of French mercenaries. (My wife was a Tudor loyalist, but for me it's Yorkist all the way.)

And a "geezer" is a male in the normal range for a TMP member. Somewhere between "too old for this, really" and "is he still alive?"

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 11:55 a.m. PST

There is but one true heir to the throne of England: Sir Edmund Plantagenet, Duke of Edinburgh.

You'll possibly know him better by his sobriquet, 'The Black Adder'.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 12:01 p.m. PST

Ochoin is ofcourse correct.
He killed the previous king and lkke Highlander, there can be only one.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 12:45 p.m. PST

Cnut.

They'll be back.

Just Wait.


-----

If you can't trace your lineage back to a British-born trilobite, you're basically a usurper in my eyes.

This is the second time I've resisted DH bait today …

Phillius Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:01 p.m. PST

Personally, I find there are so many Edmunds and Edwards in that period I just get confused and give up. Why can't they have easy names like Henry?
I guess that may make me a Tudor.

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:33 p.m. PST

Robert, over here 'geezer' has a more general meaning of 'an adult male'. So any bloke can be called a geezer, although it does tend to have connotations of someone who is a bit fly, streetwise, or dodgy in some way!

As for Paskal's question of who was most legit? Who the hell knows! Nobody knew back then either and they were the guys making the rules! Having an aquatic bint lob a scimitar seems as good a method as any other…

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:45 p.m. PST

Cnut was a nut.

If not Black Adder, then how about Baldrick?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:47 p.m. PST

If you can't trace your lineage back to a British-born trilobite, you're basically a usurper in my eyes.

A bit narrow minded…..how about we allow lineage to any British-born arthropod?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 1:49 p.m. PST

any British-born arthropod?

Hmm….that naturally leads to Richard the Turd.


"Why strew'st thou sugar on that bottled spider,
Whose deadly web ensnareth thee about?"

-from the Swan of Avon

BillyNM11 Nov 2019 2:07 p.m. PST

The strongest, but if it's a vote the Nevilles.

Yesthatphil11 Nov 2019 2:29 p.m. PST

As Robert has said, they are all Plantagenets.

Do you keep it simple? Lancastrian or Yorkist? Or more complicated Lancastrian, Yorkist of Tudor (which is basically Lancastrian illegitimate)?

From a historical point of view, the Yorkist lineage via the Mortimer line gives a better claim but might is generally superior to right when it comes to the throne.

Phil
SoA Shows North

Personal logo Jlundberg Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 2:39 p.m. PST

York for me

Nichts11 Nov 2019 3:07 p.m. PST

Godwinson.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 4:56 p.m. PST

Thank you Cerdic. Clearly I should watch more episodes of "New Tricks." (Dempsey and Makepeace was especially helpful, since she had to keep translating for the Yank. But there was never enough of it.)

Now, can anyone tell me the difference between whining and whinging? This side of the river, we just whine--though old-timers are allowed to grouse, gripe or--sometimes--kvetch. But we don't whinge. At least I don't think we do.

Personal logo COL Scott ret Supporting Member of TMP11 Nov 2019 11:05 p.m. PST

I would guess Lancaster based on where my family and my wife's family are from, although it is a best guess.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 12:54 a.m. PST

Normally the Lancasters and Tudors are usurpers who did not even give Richard II and Richard III time to have an offspring.

So you choose according to where you live? ,I thought it was political?

I thought that during the WOTR you could change sides at will?

As pure Breton, I will be for the English sovereigns who have offered to help the heroic and tiny Breton army to protect little Brittany.

Richard III tries to extradite Henry Tudor by concluding an agreement with Pierre Landais, adviser of the duke of Brittany,Richard III promises especially 1000 longbowmen (it's little …) but Henry Tudor manages to escape to France in September 1484.

He is welcomed by the regent Anne de Beaujeu and is provided with troops and equipment for a second invasion.

In the summer of 1485, the conditions are ripe for a new venture.

On the other hand we still do not know what happened to the nephews of Richard III?

And it's embarrassing …

Later British volunteers came to die in Brittany to protect it from the huge and ultra modern French army despite the prohibition of Henry VII …

TMP link

Later Henry VII (and other) sent troops to Brittany, but I think they did not fight.

In any case in September 2018, a monument was erected (monumental granite sculpture of 5.20 m high, cut in a block of 20 tons originally) in tribute to 440 English archers from the island of Wight under the command of Sir Edward Woodville "Lord Scales", (against the will of Henry VII) and dead to defend the sovereignty and independence of Brittany, 531 years ago.

link

advocate12 Nov 2019 2:38 a.m. PST

"Political" would be the later Civil War. This one was a family argument. As for location, most of the big families had land all over the place, so although Yorkshire and Lancashire have taken the White rose and the Red to their hearts, even that isn't a real thing when you look at the history.

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 3:52 a.m. PST

Whining and whinging?

Well whining is just whining. It's a tone-of-voice thing really, isn't it.

Whinging is complaining, often with a connotation of complaining unnecessarily. The word was first heard in Britain in the 1970s when it was imported from Australia. The Aussies had a phrase 'whinging poms' because the Brits who went out there were supposedly always complaining about stuff like the heat, the wildlife, the Aussies, the endless barbies etc etc!

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 3:58 a.m. PST

Hooray! The Isle of Wight gets a mention!

Forget Brexit. The real issue is independence for the Island. Similar to the Channel Isles and the Isle of Man…

Walking Sailor Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 8:43 a.m. PST

I remember that The Black Adder did sit the throne, briefly…


clench

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 10:08 a.m. PST

The hardest thing would have been to be neutral !

Trebian Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 10:52 a.m. PST

If your father was King, whether or not he took the throne by force, then generally the heir is recognised as the legitimate King. It only becomes an issue if a King fails in his duties as a Good Lord, or is completely useless.

@Paskal: What does this sentence even mean: "Normally the Lancasters and Tudors are usurpers who did not even give Richard II and Richard III time to have an offspring." That's a bizarre reading of the way things work. Richard III had an heir; he died. Edward IV had heirs, their uncle overthrew them. There's no idea that anyone sits around waiting for any of this to be fair.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP12 Nov 2019 12:11 p.m. PST

Glyndwyr!

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2019 12:50 a.m. PST

@Trebian:It is the legitimacy which counted and that the legitimacy was on the side of the plantagenet !

Legion 413 Nov 2019 8:20 a.m. PST

N/A … but napoleon

Trebian Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Nov 2019 9:30 a.m. PST

aPaskal: No. You can over stress "legitimacy". If you are King, hold your throne and have a strong heir, he will be seen as legitimate when he comes to the throne. Ultimately everyone monarch claims to trace back to William the Bastard, but his legal claim is rubbish, – he held the throne by right of conquest. The legal descent from William should go via Robert Curthose, but it doesn't. The position of female sole heirs is also unclear, as is evidenced by what happens to the Empress Matilda.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2019 10:38 a.m. PST

Yes, in fact, the WOTR is mafia clan wars …

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Nov 2019 2:50 p.m. PST

May I throw in the Valois for some additional venom?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2019 12:53 a.m. PST

Valois venom? No only the suette (sweating disease)

Deucey15 Nov 2019 12:45 p.m. PST

I proposed this same poll about two months ago! (Sans Tudor)

I accuse Paskal of being a usurper!!!

I am raising my banner in the North. Who is with me?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP16 Nov 2019 10:41 a.m. PST

Nobody.LOL

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2019 10:27 a.m. PST

@ All :

To return to my question between plague and cholera, what is the best?

I think there are some who may have remained neutral but they were not very numerous…

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