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"Sir William Stanley of Holt Standard." Topic

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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP28 Nov 2019 12:04 a.m. PST

@ All :

After this discussion, I hope it will be sold commercially.

Green S Limey05 Dec 2019 2:08 a.m. PST

PASKAL scripsit: " Yes, I agree with you, because when Citadelsix's stood up to me that Sir William Stanley was was not important enough enough to have a standard, I found it really weird, because the night before Bosworth, Henry Tudor found Sir William important enough to go see him …"

Yes, weird, indeed, I would have guessed that a magnate likeSir William Stanley of Holt, possessed of wide estates centered on a Marcher castle in one of the most militarised regions of the country and able to put 10,000 men in the field, and with recent experience of the rule of men(he had been chief Justice of North Wales and command of troops (though not very successfully – he had been on the losing side at Blore Heath in 1459) was exactly the sort of man, who would have expected to raise a standard, with all its martial connotations tha), rather than the mocivilian banner (more associated morewith peacetime ceremonialand dynastic boast)
cbreeding ground of English military strength which was regionally dominant magnate able to put 10,000 men in the field it looks as though the However, that notwithstanding it has to be admittedthatone of the principal documentary sources for the Bosworth campaign and the political machinations which preceded it_ the traditional ballad known as [it.]the song of lady Bessy[it./]('Bessy' being Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV andHenry Tudor's future queen) – appears to say (there is some ambiguity) that Sir Williamdisplayed a banner at Bosworth:

[q] Now is word come to Sir William Stanley there[ at Stone], Early in the Monday, in the morning, That the Earle of Darby, his brother dear,
Had given battle to Richard the king …
That wou'd I not, said Sir William anone, For all the gold in Christantye, That the battle shou'd be done
Straight to Lichfield cou'd he ride
And when he came to Lichfield that tyde
All they cryed King Henry:
Straight to Bolesworth can they go
In all the hast that might be,
But when he came Bolesworth Field unto,
There met a royall company;
The Earle of Darby thither was come,
And Twenty thousand stood him by;
Sir John Savage, his sister's son, He was his nephew of his blood so nigh, He had fifteen hundred fighting men, That wou'd fight and never flye; Sir William Stanley, that royall knight, then Ten thousand red coats had he, They wou'd bicker with their bows there, They wou'd fight and and never flye;
The red Rosse and Blew Boar,
They were both a solemn Company;
Sir Rees ap Thomas he was thereby, With ten thousand spears of mighty tree; The Earle of Richmond went to the Earle of Darby, And downe he falleth upon his knee,
Said, Father Stanley, full of might, The vaward I pray you give to me, For I am come to claime my right, And faine revenged wou'd I bee. Stand up, he said, my son quickly, Thou has thy mothers blessing truely
The vaward, son, I will give to thee,
So that thou wilt be ordered by me,
Sir William Stanley, my brother dear, In the battle he shall be; Sir John Savage, he hath no peer, He shall be a wing then to thee.
Sir Rees ap Thomas shall break the array,
For he will fight and never flee;
I myselfe will hove on the hill, I say,
The fair battle I will see.
King Richard he hoveth upon the mountaine;
He was aware of the banner of the bould Stanley[it is not clear which Stanley is meant … Sir William? … or lord Thomas,Lord Stanley, the future earl of Derby …?],

And saith, Fetch hither the Lord Strange certain, For he shall dye this same day ;
To the death, Lord, thee ready make, For I tell thee certainly That thou shalt dye for thy uncle's sake, Wild William of Stanley.
If I shall dye, said the Lord Strange then, As God forbid it shou'd so bee,, Alas! for my lady that is at home, it shoud be long ere she shall see me,
But we shall meet at doomsday,when the great doom shall be.
He called for a gent in good fay of Lancashire, both fair and free, The name of him it was Lathum;
A ring of gould he took from his finger, And threw it to the gent then, And bad him bring it to Lancashire, To his lady that was at home ; At her table she may sit right,
Or she see her lord it may be long, I have no foot to fligh nor fight, I must be murdered with the king:
If fortune my uncle Sir William Stanley loose the field, As God forbid it shou'd so bee, , Pray her to take my eldest son and child, And exile him over behind the sea ; He may come in another time By feild or fleet, by tower or towne, Wreak so he may his father's death in fyne, Upon Richard of England that weareth the crown.[q/]

the other Balllad which treats of Bosworth, [it.] The Ballad of Bosworth Field [it/], is less ambiguous:

King Richard looked on the mountaines hye,
& sayd, " I see the banner of the lord Stanley."
he said Feitch hither the lord Strange to mee,
For doubtlesse hee shall dye this day;

Rabelais05 Dec 2019 2:37 a.m. PST

Did Citadel Six mean that he wasn't important enough for them to make his standard, that is, few people would want to buy it? Rather than saying the historical Stanley wasn't important enough to have one.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP06 Dec 2019 9:17 a.m. PST

@ Green S Limey:

Although he had a standard and no factory was able to do it!

@ Rabelais:

He was not important enough to make his standard? He had at least 3000 men and his brother too (which had a standard for him …) They did not want to create him with imagination, some proposals were made above on the topic.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP17 Dec 2019 6:09 a.m. PST

During the Battle of Bosworth, his offensive against Richard's forces played a decisive role in Henri's victory, while his brother Thomas, whose son was held hostage by Richard, remained behind.

According to Polydore Virgile, William Stanley would even have saved Henry's life on the battlefield.

After his coronation, the new King Henry VII rewards William by making him Lord Chambellan and Chambellan de l'Échiquier.

He then benefits from an exceptional fortune, estimated at 400,000 marcs for an annual income of 3,000 pounds, but unlike his brother, who is titled Earl of Derby, he is not raised to the peerage of England, this which may have aroused some resentment towards the king.

Is it because he did not raise to the peerage of England that his standard is not known?

In 1495 William Stanley was accused of supporting Perkin Warbeck, a pretender to the throne who posed as Richard of Shrewsbury.

He might have genuinely believed he was dealing with the younger son of Edward IV, a king to whom he had remained fiercely loyal.

For his part, Henry VII seems to have taken the opportunity to eliminate a chamberlain who has become too powerful for his taste.

Stanley is therefore found guilty and sentenced to be hanged, dragged and dressed.

The king agreed to commute this sentence to beheading, and the execution took place on February 16 at Tower Hill.

Is it because of this betrayal that his standard is not known?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2020 9:13 a.m. PST

@ vividchris:
What is the color: "natural colored eagle"?

MacColla29 Oct 2020 3:44 p.m. PST

It means eagle-coloured. In other words, the eagle is not in a heraldic colour, but in its real-life colours (although Osprey show an eagle or (not natural coloured) in The Wars of the Roses, Plate G2, described as "taken from a Tudor manuscript, drawn circa 1531 but showing many standards of circa 1475". In fairness, that is the standard of Thomas Stanley but the suggestion here was William may have used the same eagle and swaddled child emblem).

Warspite129 Oct 2020 5:11 p.m. PST

This may assist. I am currently painting and basing Sir William Stanley's unit in 15mm for an upcoming Bosworth game:


Basically this is a livery banner of gules (red) a stag's head argent (white).


Warspite130 Oct 2020 3:21 a.m. PST

Since putting up last night's link (above) I realised that I was being lazy and had only scaled it for 15mm figures or smaller.
I have changed it this morning to a much larger size. Scale it down to suit the size of your figures. I did not have time to colour the flag pole strip so paint that to suit the colour of your flag pole:


For those of us not aware livery banners were 'cut down' battlefield versions of the long standard as not every lord had the time or money to make a full standard. The livery banner should display the livery colours and the most obvious retinue badge.

A Beaufort livery banner is pictured here:

The long standard could be TOO long and might not display properly. The shorter livery banner thus functioned as a visual aid for your own illiterate troops ("You wear these colours and this badge so you stand near this banner") and a better identification of friend or foe.


Paskal Supporting Member of TMP31 Oct 2020 6:52 a.m. PST

Oh dear !: Damn! Damn ! Damn it! The WOTR "specialist" of this forum has not yet told us how was the standard of Sir William Stanley of Holt? ;-)

MacColla26 Nov 2020 12:29 p.m. PST

Paskal – try Pete's Flags – he has a set for Thomas Stanley available.

Warspite128 Nov 2020 4:45 a.m. PST

@MacColla and others:
Apologies, I produced a pair of Sir William Stanley flags a few weeks ago and forgot to post them here:


No 2 is the William Stanley livery banner, a speculative design but based on what we know.
No 4 is the William Stanley heraldry, the same as his brother Sir Thomas Stanley but differenced by the black crescent moon, a cadency mark indicating a second son.

No 1 is Richard Duke of York (killed 1460)
No 3 Viscount Lovell (disappeared after 1487)


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