UshCha | 08 Nov 2019 3:49 a.m. PST |
Our rules review is almost complete. All that is left is airpower; the current rules have neither been used much nor stand the test of time. The problem was that 10 years ago we had dumped 6mm as not being to our taste and we were deeply into 1/72 figures. At such scales a company was almost too big and at least the smaller defenders were a platoon with a few supports. The battlefield was close so without flying high and risking long range AA weapons, there was little use. Asymmetric warfare was not yet in our sights. Even artillery was somewhat an issue at that scale as danger areas cover a not insignificant area of the board in some cases. At this level air power was not an issue particularly as few if any games were at the FEBZ where airpower could be projected in part even if air superiority was not 100%. Plus in areas of the main effort that are well defended aircraft needed to be no closer than about 14 km to survive against a well-protected unit so will never appear on our tables. However the rules have excelled there original expectations and at 1/144 scale can cope perfectly with the FEBZ where the airpower environment is more forgiving and so we need to actually add to the existing systems. Super weapons like laser guide toss bombs and other similar super accurate systems at long range can just be portrayed almost without change, as the system is off board and so simple to model. Really all we want to cover is low level ground attack, using most probably unguided munitions from both fixed wing and helicopter and Hybrid (VTOL and OSPREY type systems). So what to do? Legion 4's recent comments helped, we have decided in the interests of simplicity without undue inaccuracy, to effectively allow simple AA weapons to just spoil the aim and or drive off air vehicles at best. Simple AAA with or without radar and Man carried missiles will be the order of the day perhaps occasionally a dedicated AFV with specialised AA capability is the absolute limit. At the speeds most air vehicles travel (except helicopters in hover) are so fast they will come and go in a fleeting moment so will have their own, subroutine to resolve the situation before returning to the normal play sequence. The granularity will be large, only a few generic wepons, cannon, macine guns and disposable rockets perhaps the odd guided weapon. Absolutely no air to air disputes and the whole thing needs to be resolved in a minute or two. There are things like dead ground that cause some issues. For instance how much higher than a local obstacle can an air vehicle safely fly? 1 contour (about 8 ft.) seems a bit low but 2 contours may be a bit of a problem for 1/72 as that would mean a flight stand potentially 6 stories or more high. We use 3to 4 contour building and hill and at worst we can have a 4 contour hill with a 3 contour high tree (and that a bit small for a tree). Ten counters at 1/172 does seem a lot. Your view opinions on the basic strategy would be appreciated. NOTE I have no interest in the approach around parades of minatures that stay on the board for large amouts of time and have little to do with reality, other folk do that better than us. |
Thresher01 | 08 Nov 2019 4:25 a.m. PST |
Add in helos, and the occasional A-10 for fun. The latter can fly down in the weeds, and use trees, hills, and other objects for cover against ground fire. Tractics did this abstraction quite well. A simple die roll to see if you have air supremacy, partial dominance, parity, or not. Then, air support is provided accordingly, or not at all. |
Bigby Wolf | 08 Nov 2019 6:14 a.m. PST |
I'd never heard the term "toss bombs" before this thread! Just Googled it and it's legit. Feeling very happy now, for some reason :-) |
robert piepenbrink | 08 Nov 2019 7:19 a.m. PST |
Hmm. Well, there's always the cynical ground-pounder's answer: (1) Die roll to see whether the air power shows up, subtracting for maintenance, bad comms and hostile anti-aircaft. (2) Die roll to see who--if anyone--they hit, subtracting for terrain, aircraft speed, hostile AAA and weapon inaccuracy, adding for precision munitions, marked targets and--maybe--making some provision for being on the same side as the aircraft. (Never sure how much difference that last makes, though.) Air power is really good about killing enemies before they get to the battlefield. Air power ON the battlefield varies, and tends either to be so good it spoils the game from a miniatures standpoint, or to just add random death and destruction. Another reason I don't wargame after 1944, and then only in bad weather. |
Legion 4 | 08 Nov 2019 8:50 a.m. PST |
Really all we want to cover is low level ground attack, using most probably unguided munitions from both fixed wing and helicopter We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc. You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, … try again next turn. If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that. If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*. Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx". *And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom ! Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO. You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used. If so repeat the procedure as above. But you can only roll for loiter once. Then the aircraft go back to base to Rearm & Refuel. But are not brought on the board again. That pretty much replicates what happens with CAS, ADA, etc. … contour Helicopters use Contour[or NOE] they move/fly behind cover, e.g. trees, ridges, structures, etc. and only take fire if in direct LOS. Choppers hover behind cover, then pop up to fire their ordinance. Then go back down behind cover. Once the chopper fires, only then may one unit fire at the chopper then. With a -1 one to hit. That is the way we do it and it is pretty realistic. |
UshCha | 08 Nov 2019 11:35 a.m. PST |
Legion 4 the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft? |
UshCha | 08 Nov 2019 12:43 p.m. PST |
Robert the die rolling thing is to me is all too often overplayed. If the upstairs thinks its needed, they will pull out the stops to get it. The UK had a Taxi rank of aircraft at call in WW2 so really you would normally expect to get support. Why waste time on that bit of the model if its going to turn up anyway? Really air power to me is something that can happily fit in the FEBZ and be interesting. In the middle of a big fight at close range it as you say, takes it out of the set of useful games. You could have tactical nukes but that does nothing to help you learn the basics of combined arms warfare. Because you can is not necessarily a driver as to why you should. Now a big argument can be had as to whether you want to be in the FEBZ, as a modeler perhaps not, its often light equipment well spaced out and perhaps prevents you fielding your latest pointless acquisition that you have spent day or even weeks painting. To a man interested in simulation its engrossing and allow a lot of scope for maneuver and tactics. |
Legion 4 | 08 Nov 2019 2:23 p.m. PST |
the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft? A chopper can hover over the ground about 1 ft. If need be. So to keep it simple but not too simple. Anytime a chopper is next to cover/concealment that is larger enough to cover/hide the model. Even on a flight stand. It's in cover. It Can't be seen or targeted. If need be take the chopper off the flight stand. While hovering or even moving behind cover. Along it's flight path or where it stops. Now to deal with speeds. Flying NOE should be a slower speed, i.e. about 1/2 of max speed. Contour should be at the top speed. And in either case you will have to have LOS to target, at anytime. E.g. you could outflank a group of trees spome choppers are hovering behind. I.e. That cover would block LOS from the front but not the flank. |
TNE2300 | 08 Nov 2019 3:11 p.m. PST |
Legion 4 the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft? per GDW Striker – a vehicle in NOE is 4 meters above the ground Terrain Following is 10 meters above the obstacle it is over High Mode is 10 meters higher than the tallest obstacle on the battlefield a vehicle executing a pop up is at what ever altitude it chooses |
TNE2300 | 08 Nov 2019 3:18 p.m. PST |
the chieftain's hatch 'when your tank is attacked by aircraft' YouTube link |
Zephyr1 | 08 Nov 2019 4:02 p.m. PST |
Your groundscale will determine if the AC even shows up over the battlefield. A strafing AC would start way off the field and 'walk' it's attack across the target area before flying off (I assume you'd agree that placing an AC on the playfield and making an attack at pointblank range is not the 'realism' you're looking for. ;-) A look at gun camera footage of strafing attacks should give you good examples of the ranges involved. Rockets & guided munitions are just another form of strafing… ;-) |
robert piepenbrink | 08 Nov 2019 4:31 p.m. PST |
Ill differ, Uscha. The British didn't have cab ranks "in WWII:" they had cab ranks of aircraft twice or maybe three times in WWII, which is not the same--late North Africa, the breakout in France and (I think) in the final 1945 thrust. The rest of the time, I may not have been cynical enough. But when it works smoothly--really there's no game. Can't recall the name of the engagement, but a combat command of the French 2nd DB ran into one of the short-lived panzer brigades in the Lorraine Campaign when the sun broke out. As an example of the proper use of tactical air power, it's outstanding. As a miniatures game, it's not worth putting troops on the table--and I've never seen an example of "cab rank" air which was. The "combined arms" consist of aircraft, spotters and radios. The better the air-ground coordination, the more you're playing a computer game--or a fantasy one. It's FEBZ now? Of course. FEBA went the way of FLOT and front line. |
ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore | 08 Nov 2019 5:57 p.m. PST |
I my view- this book has basically everything you need to understand airpower in this period- link It is a very experienced former military aviator interviewing a range of current military aviators. I can't recommend it highly enough. However, it might be slightly disappointing from a wargaming perspective- both sides planned to make sure that the enemy had almost no aircraft over the contact battle area. So in a tactical level wargame, almost all airpower effects should be felt indirectly by slowing/eliminating reinforcements, reducing artillery support, etc. The book indicates that A10s (and maybe Hinds but not Western attack helis) are the only aircraft plausible to see even occasionally over the contact battle area. But everything else was supposed to be hitting targets several Ks and more further back. That said- I've got lots of planes and helis and use them a lot. |
Wolfhag | 08 Nov 2019 7:33 p.m. PST |
How low can you go: link Wolfhag |
UshCha | 09 Nov 2019 2:00 a.m. PST |
Thanks all for the links I proably For NOE at high speed (proably 100kts or more looks like somewhere between 1 and 3 contours i.e about 8 to 24 ft and possibly even more. So perhaps 1 contour is a bit low but simple. Very Low speed is any height as is Hovee to sat on the ground. |
Legion 4 | 09 Nov 2019 7:22 a.m. PST |
a vehicle in NOE is 4 meters above the ground Terrain Following is 10 meters above the obstacle it is over High Mode is 10 meters higher than the tallest obstacle on the battlefield a vehicle executing a pop up is at what ever altitude it chooses That sounds like a very workable/useful set of NOE rules. Plus note in Vietnam[e.g. LZ X-Ray] and later in the Blackhawk Down action, gunships[Huey Gunships, OH6s, etc.] could hover just above ground level, a few ft. or so. And open up with it's MGs, GLs, etc. E.g. during an FTX in the early 80s with the 101. As a Rifle PL I was running my Plt thru the woods towards the sounds of fire, etc. We got to the treeline/the edge of the woods. An AH1 was hovering there at about 8-10ft., less than 100yds away. In a small open field. With it's chin turret moving back and forth. Demonstrating it's GL & Mini-gun would be opening up on us. Probably killing most of us. We returned & retaliated with flipping him the bird as he moved closer to us.
Your groundscale will determine if the AC even shows up over the battlefield. A strafing AC would start way off the field and 'walk' it's attack across the target area before flying off (I assume you'd agree that placing an AC on the playfield and making an attack at pointblank range is not the 'realism' you're looking for. ;-) A look at gun camera footage of strafing attacks should give you good examples of the ranges involved. Rockets & guided munitions are just another form of strafing… ;-) Yes depending game scale, e.g. in 6mm CAS can make it's gun runs, drop bomb(s), etc. at the range of each of those weapons on the AC. Note: Strike AC don't drop bombs on top of the target but drops in before it gets to the target. As the bomb literally flies along the flight path and drops altitude unit hits the target.* Hence the use of high-drag bombs. Fins pop out of the bomb to slow it's decent so the attacking AC is not hit by it's own ordinance blast(!). *It may look like the CAS is dropping bombs over its own troops. But the bombs as I said fly along the AC's flight path. The book indicates that A10s (and maybe Hinds but not Western attack helis) are the only aircraft plausible to see even occasionally over the contact battle area. But everything else was supposed to be hitting targets several Ks and more further back. We used a tactic call a "JAAT" – Join Air Attack Tm". Where the AH-1s hovering behind cover, pop-up fire is ordinance, goes back down behind cover. And quickly A-10s would swoop down, open with their weapons, then get out of the AO. Jinxing, flying behind any higher cover, etc. The AH1s[later AH64s] would pop-up again, fire, go back behind cover. Note they would probably move to another cover & concealed position. So as not to draw FA, etc. Then the A-10s would attack again … Repeat until you run of ammo & ordinance … The JAAT was designed to assist with stemming the tide of USSR/WP armor/mech forces. That was expected to flood across the IGB if WWIII broke out. How low would/could they fly ? If the terrain allowed it … well … I was standing on the back of truck with my radio. And the one A-10, flew by close enough for me to see him waving at us … Even on TMP a former(?) USAF pilot who flew both the A-10 and F-16. Said everything an A-10 could do an F-16 do as well or better … IMO … He should know … |
Lion in the Stars | 09 Nov 2019 1:44 p.m. PST |
There are things like dead ground that cause some issues. For instance how much higher than a local obstacle can an air vehicle safely fly? 1 contour (about 8 ft.) seems a bit low but 2 contours may be a bit of a problem for 1/72 as that would mean a flight stand potentially 6 stories or more high. We use 3to 4 contour building and hill and at worst we can have a 4 contour hill with a 3 contour high tree (and that a bit small for a tree). Ten counters at 1/172 does seem a lot. Your view opinions on the basic strategy would be appreciated. Well, *some* crazy/very skilled helo drivers can get down to within 8 feet of the ground and still fly fast. 160th SOAR, for example. But 16-24 feet is probably more realistic. Most fixed-wing airplanes like to keep 50 feet above the ground as a minimum.
NOTE I have no interest in the approach around parades of minatures that stay on the board for large amouts of time and have little to do with reality, other folk do that better than us. Keeping a model around helps me remember that I have the asset! |
Legion 4 | 10 Nov 2019 8:09 a.m. PST |
SOAR has some of the best helicopter pilots in the world. And is the only Army unit that uses V-22s, AFAIK. |
UshCha | 10 Nov 2019 2:47 p.m. PST |
Fog of war is best done for real, forgetting assets is a perfect example, no need for rules, like traffic jams they occur without need for rules if you plan it wrong, just like the real world. |
Apache 6 | 10 Nov 2019 8:59 p.m. PST |
There are huge variants between how various countries and militaries see aviation fires. Soviet doctrine did not really plan for close air support. In the US military: - USAF views Close Air Support (CAS) as something that is done as a last resort. - US Army sees attack helicopters as a 'separate maneuver element' that executes air interdiction and strike missions. – USMC plans for CAS as part of the fire support plan for ground maneuver. Doctrine and training support this employment. USAF and Army Attack helicopters should rarely be on table, their "effects" would be felt by fewer enemy forces reaching the ground forces security area or main battle area (and/or being delayed and/or disorganized when they arrive), this can be very interesting in a campaign game, but not likely to be very enjoyable. CAS missions are difficult to coordinate, but have been proved to have large psychological effects on both the supported and targeted forces. Many games model the physical effects, but don't go far enough to model the psychological effects. I'd suggest strong moral modifiers for units that are targeted or see their side being targeted. I'd also recommend strong moral modifiers for the friendly side. There are also huge variations over time periods, or depending on what systems are available and employed and what the opponents can use to counter that. |
Legion 4 | 11 Nov 2019 6:47 a.m. PST |
USAF and Army Attack helicopters should rarely be on table, I feel it depends on the scale of course, i.e. in 6mm they work. CAS missions are difficult to coordinate Yes, that is why I we use these rules. As I said it FA & CAS are too much "100%" it won't be much of a game. And they will dominate the board. And also not be very "realistic" … We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc. You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, … try again next turn. If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that. If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*. Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx". *And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom ! Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO. You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used. If so repeat the procedure as above. But you can only roll for loiter once. Then the aircraft go back to base to Rearm & Refuel. But are not brought on the board again. |
Wolfhag | 11 Nov 2019 7:20 a.m. PST |
I'd have to agree with Apache 6. I abstractly use airpower to attrite and delay reinforcements arriving on the table. I am experimenting with IL-2's using "Circle of Death" and "S-attacks" and a shootout with AAA units on a 3000m table, 1" = 25m. The Army did use Apache units to attack Iraqi units in an airstrike but they didn't try it again. link A sophisticated piece of hardware like a helicopter that takes hits and survives will be a mission kill for up to a few weeks. Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes. One Apache took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines, and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was fit to fly. It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again. The casualties sustained by the Apaches induced a change of tactics by placing significant restrictions on their use. Attack helicopters would henceforth be used to reveal the location of enemy troops, allowing them to be destroyed by artillery and airstrikes. Thomas E. White, the U.S. Secretary of the Army, stated, "we were very fortunate we didn't lose more aircraft."[12] link It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again. So after one mission, the entire Regiment stood down. I'd think the current strategy would be to use Apaches in a stand-off mission and not get near enemy units. Wolfhag |
UshCha | 11 Nov 2019 11:46 a.m. PST |
In asymmetric warfare air power is not uncommon. 3 para in helm and caller it in with some regularity to get them out of trouble. Sometimes A10's provided by the US and sometimes UK Apatcheies. BOOK GURKHAS BETTER TO DIE THAN LIVE LIKE A COWARD HAS SOME INTERESTING ACOUNTY. |
UshCha | 12 Nov 2019 8:24 a.m. PST |
As usual this is proving harder than I anticipated, particularly for the earlier periods. Having time to sit and think, I am on holiday and the boss is sunbathing, there are a lot of issues that as far as I can see, moast rules fail to address which is why maybe air power behaves better than the real world, like some rules and Tiger tanks. 1) calling air power needs to have some skill as far as I can see. The caller needs to be certain the CAS will be able to identify the target quickly far enough away to make a credible weapons lease. This means the caller will need to advise on the direction of attack. If it's in hill dead ground in one direction the pilot may not see it until too late if he is fast and low level. 2) direction may be critical to avoid friendlies in the danger zone. 3) The caller may need to coordinate fires so that for instance vehicles can be stopped from being open topped and putting up protective fire, to avoid the run being aborted. 4) the caller needs to be aware in some cases where the enemy will be when the attack arrives and may need to either mark the target or at least mark nearby frienlies just before the run. There may be more, the point is there may be lots of none die type decisions that need to be made tpmake air power credible. To me too many rules concentrate on the benefits of a weapon system and not it's weakness. Even if crudely the weaknesses need to be covered at the same level as the benefits or you end up with the sad tanks beat all syndrome which makes the game pointless for me. |
Legion 4 | 12 Nov 2019 8:37 a.m. PST |
Yes, that attack by the AH-64s, in Iraq was not properly planned or executed, IMO. We were taught to Suppress Enemy Air Defense Systems [SEADS], suspected or known. Along the flight path(s). I think for fear of CD, that didn't occurred. I was a Bn Air Ops Officer, in the 101, this was considered SOP. But I was not there so I don't know for sure ? Again, I was trained to use JAAT missions[graduated from USAF Firepower Coordination Course/Air Ground Ops School]. And gunships we also used in pop-up attacks as I described. And of course stand-off attacks really was SOP in most cases. E.g. a TOW on a gunship has an over 3700m range. Again my contention of on a 6mm scale game table. That could be simulated, generally. As well as CAS. Again as a JAAT. As well was Lift Ships, e.g. UH1s & UH60s in an insertion would have gunships and LOACHs flying ahead of the assault birds. And gunships as flank security and instant fire support if needed … Of course the tactic on a 6mm table would be to place your gunships behind cover near you board edge. And take advantage of their long range weapons. That goes for on board FA too. And as we know sometimes FA can be used in direct mode. But that would be a rarity, e.g. Berlin, Manila, Korea, etc. So with FA & mortars on the a 6mm board. Place them behind cover a use them in the Indirect Fire mode. That should be SOP in most cases, like 99% of the time. And of course we have long range off board fire support as I posted previously. From distant batteries, or even Naval Fire Support. Again, I'm talking on a 6mm game board. |
Wolfhag | 12 Nov 2019 9:11 a.m. PST |
UshCha, Most of your questions should be answered in a manual. If you had planned direct CAS you'd most likely have an FO/vehicle attached and maybe something circling nearby ready to drop on short notice. When calling for non-direct support there may be something nearby that you can claim from another unit because you are in a dire need and priority. If you are doing a post-1995 scenario you could abstract it to the point of just determining how long it takes for the support to arrive and when it does the target is destroyed. You don't need to roll for accuracy and damage for a 2000lb JDAM. Hellfires did have an accuracy problem according to this article: link Wolfhag |
UshCha | 12 Nov 2019 10:33 a.m. PST |
Yup even miracle weapons are not so. Interesting documentary on BBC with a challenger 95%+ hit probability on the range that day 8 out of 11 targets hit, Apprently not great but acceptable. So always a bit of a chance of a miss. You are correct Wolfhag newer weapons are just anti tank missiles fired off table or artillery. Hot smoke with chaff will upset almost anything so no different there. OK so a bit of design work going on to support approximations. Turn radius pulling 3g's at 457 mph (Mn 0.6 at SL) is approx 1333 m. To be honest at 1/72 assuming a straight path is not at all unreasonable as mostly the pilots don't turn at 3g while deploying ordinance CCI systems excepted and they seem to have fallen out of favour. Slower older planes run straight anyway to srafe. So the path across the board at any 'high' speed must be straight. A reasonable approximation and very easy to model on the table top. |
Legion 4 | 12 Nov 2019 2:57 p.m. PST |
For most CAS you should have to roll to hit and if misses target roll for scatter. As I said the ordinance has to fall/go somewhere. And when calling for FA, etc. weapons with a bigger blast template should also roll for scatter … In both situations a Ldr stand or vehicles should make the call. To see if the call is not effected by any number of things. 1 roll should encompass all of those. The is the call is good. You have to see if the FA or CAS hits the target. With another/more die rolls. |
Wolfhag | 13 Nov 2019 12:45 a.m. PST |
UshCha, In 2017 a buddy of mine was in Yemen and watched the live feed from a drone launching a Hellfire at a guy speeding on a dirt trail on a motorbike. He said the Hellfire hit the rider and the bike went flying up in the air, did a perfect landing and went another 30m before flipping over. I can only think the gyroscopic spinning of the two wheels kept it upright. The Hellfire has had various upgrades so accuracy can vary on scenario date. It looks as if you have the math figured out. In VN the Marines came in at treetop level to drop 200lb Snake Eyes and napalm. The target was normally a treeline, geographic location or marked by colored smoke. Now they can mark a target and drop an LGB from 20,000 feet. I'd think a close support aircraft like an A-10 would be jinking while approaching the target, straighten out for the 1-2 second burst at 60 rps and then start taking evasive action. The A-10 gun is accurate enough to place 80 percent of its shots within a 40-foot (12.4 m) diameter circle from 4,000 feet (1,220 m) while in flight. The GAU-8 is optimized for a slant range of 4,000 feet (1,220 m) with the A-10 in a 30-degree dive. Wolfhag |
UshCha | 13 Nov 2019 3:24 a.m. PST |
Wolfhag thanks great data. |
Legion 4 | 13 Nov 2019 7:48 a.m. PST |
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DaleWill | 13 Nov 2019 11:01 a.m. PST |
Here's my uninformed take: As a boy growing up in the late 70's my parents had a cottage on Lake Ontario up by Watertown New York. This was before the 10th Mountain Div. moved in. The Syracuse ANG flew A-10's at the time. We would be swimming in the lake and A-10's would fly low enough that the pilots would wave back at us when we waved to them. Seemed like just a few hundred feet up. |
Legion 4 | 13 Nov 2019 2:49 p.m. PST |
Yes, I experienced the same. When working with A-10s at Ft. Drum, NY, in the early '80s. |
UshCha | 14 Nov 2019 9:03 a.m. PST |
Wolfhag, the data you provided is interesting. I did the algebra on the A 10 data you provided. At 4000m slant range at 30 deg dive the aircraft is at 2000m (over 6000 ft) atltitude. Based on what I understand that is nowhere low level and as a low level tank buster it seems strange to set a gun up for that. However, this may be manufactures data, the condition being to look good like the Hellfire example you linked too. WOOPS s too much Sangria mixed m and ft. Slant height is 6Of.8 2000 ft, still a long way up but much more sensible. |
Wolfhag | 14 Nov 2019 10:10 a.m. PST |
I'm not doing any wargaming for post-WWII right now so I'm just quoting some sources I found awhile back. Optimized seems like a suggestion. I'd imagine there are a number of attack profiles depending on a number of factors. Personally, for ground attack, I'd like to be as high as possible. Gau-30 You could work up some attack profiles of your own with this data: Effective firing range: 4,000 feet (1,220 m) Maximum firing range: Over 12,000 feet (3,660 m) Precision: 80% of rounds fired at 4,000 feet (1,200 m) range hit within a 40-foot (12 m) diameter circle Here is a detailed range firing report: PDF link At about 4:30 into this video the A-10 fires and the HUD should show the altitude and pitch angle: YouTube link Here is a low level attack profile:
Wolfhag |
Wolfhag | 14 Nov 2019 1:40 p.m. PST |
FWIW, I was looking at some other A-10 gun camera footage on low altitude passes at about a 3-5 degree dive. The lower the altitude the lower the attack angle so you get a longer beaten zone of the rounds in front of and behind the target which means fewer rounds impacting the target. "Optimized for the gun" may mean the best angle of attack to get the smaller beaten zone to put the most rounds on target. A greater angle of dive means engagement from a higher altitude. In the game, you could have a Risk-Reward Decision for the player. Engage at a lower altitude with less accuracy but immune to SAM's but not AAA. Higher altitude means more accuracy, no AAA except for SAM's. Then you could use a "Pop Up" attack too. Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 14 Nov 2019 2:18 p.m. PST |
Yes, That is kind of what I said …
Yes, that is why I we use these rules. As I said it FA & CAS are too much "100%" it won't be much of a game. And they will dominate the board. And also not be very "realistic" … We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc. You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, … try again next turn. If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that. If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*. Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx". *And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom ! Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO. You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used. |
UshCha | 15 Nov 2019 1:02 a.m. PST |
OK so as usual at the start I missed a trick or two. Beaten zone sizes. Thanks to Wolfhag's links I have begun to get a bit of a handle on this stuff. Interesting fact top speed of a spitfire is 408 mph A 10 About 448 mph. So in a ground attack where speed is one way to stay safe they will both be going similar speeds on a strafing run. While the weight of ammunition is different a Spitfire's 8 off .303 guns have a total fire rate around 4800 rum. The GA 8 on the A 10 is set at 3900 rum now days. Again similar, so for a crude model of strafing with fixed wing aircraft a lot can be reasonably approximated a one size fits all. Now the A 10 is practicaly limited to 1 to 2 sec bursts, as 408 mph is 180m/s then a 2 sec burst is close on 400m long the distance the aircraft has moved in 2 sec. In reality the Spitfire will be a bit slow but can probably fire a while longer but it at least puts a plausible scale on the issue. Now the A 10 run on final fire is over a kilometer so again the straight line on the table looks credible. Now the width of the pattern the real A 10 is 40 ft wide at optimum range at ground scale that's not even a tank width. Two options available, do it as a laser line or give it a width something credible. I will proably go for about a tank length wide. This in effect makes it look more plausible and helps (but not completely) the separation between friends and foe, This stuff is very crude but it backs up the fact that any credible 1/72 model game really can't have much airpower in it. At 400m the burst pattern is short of the table width by only 8 Inch and at 500m or so the pattern starts in front of the plane,its not on the table when the shots are fired , in fact the shots just about finish as the plane appears on the board! Any comments on this bit? So really this only applies to games with 1m represents 10 00 or more! |
Legion 4 | 15 Nov 2019 8:13 a.m. PST |
Any Beaten Zone or Blast Radius can be replicated by templates of various sizes. E.g. a long tear drop shape or circular markers of different radii based on size of ordinance used/dropped, etc. the fact that any credible 1/72 model game really can't have much airpower in it. Nor should it … But again we do 6mm … And even at that we play only 25% of your Total Battleforce numbers can be used to purchase that. The 25% includes CAS, Off Board FA & Naval Fire Support. Or in the future Orbital Support as well, i.e. "Ortillary". |
UshCha | 18 Nov 2019 2:37 p.m. PST |
So yet more thought. As both the Spitfire and the A 10 fire the same number of rounds in 2 seconds it's time to look at effects. The A 10 optimum is about 40 ft (12m) and 400 ft long so at 50% in that area about 1 round about every 2 sq m, that is a lot (50% roads in the 40 ft width). So make it equivalent to an artillery barrage at a concentration equivalent to that sufficient to suppress troops in fighting positions. In addition armoured vehicles In the beaten zone take the equivalent of an anti tank gun hit on the top armour equivalent to the most penetrating rounds being used. so they just roll on the penetration table. This always gives a small chance of a non significant hit and so is " Cheap and Cheerful" while retaining plausibility. QED strafing weapons fire complete, any comments? Dumb Bombs Same damage area as equivalent explosive fill of 155mm HE rounds, as a concentration. So a 500 lb bomb is equivalent of 8 155 mm HE rounds with a plus on the AFV damage chart if within 50m of the impact point. Dumb bomb scatter D 20 score 19 or 20 hit target point. Bomb release point 500m before intended impact point. Based on about a 2 second drop under gravity (32 ft/s^2), about 90 ft altitude, I see no useful gain in this approximation to vary release time with altitude. On other odd numbers impact point is moved retrograde on the flight track by score ×10m. Even numbers deviation is in the flight direction score × 10m . For simplicity no lateral deviation. Danger zone, (possible damage) 200m from edge of beaten zone. This gives some chance of dumb bombs almost missing and hence a gain for smart bombs. SMART BOMBS
No deviation of impact point, otherwise treat the same as Dumb Bombs. DUMB rockets, any suggestions based on above? |
Legion 4 | 18 Nov 2019 3:26 p.m. PST |
QED strafing weapons fire complete, any comments? As I said, CAS can make it's gun runs at the range of each of those weapons on the AC. DUMB rockets, any suggestions based on above? Same as Strafing/gun runs with blast template if applicable. |
Wolfhag | 18 Nov 2019 9:05 p.m. PST |
Typhoon rocket attacks: link link Russian RS-82 anti-tank rockets: Spread: 16 angular mil Like most unguided rockets, RS suffered from poor accuracy. Early testing demonstrated that, when fired from 500 m (1,640 ft), a mere 1.1% of 186 fired RS-82 hit a single tank and 3.7% hit a column of tanks. RS-132 accuracy was even worse, with no hits scored in 134 firings during one test. Combat accuracy was even worse, since the rockets were typically fired from even greater distances. To further complicate the matters, RS-82 required a direct hit to disable light German armor, with near-misses causing no damage. RS-132 could defeat medium German armor with a direct hit but caused almost no damage to light or medium armor with a near-miss. Best results were usually attained when firing in salvos against large ground targets. Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 19 Nov 2019 9:09 a.m. PST |
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UshCha | 19 Nov 2019 4:44 p.m. PST |
Wolfhag as usual some Great stuff in that. I looked at some UK stuff and some operational research indicated rockets were not accurate in the operational environment. To be honest your data as far as our rules would bother they would be considers a waste of rules, 1 to 4% is less than 1 on a D 20 so not worth rolling. Perhaps we may add a suppression which is folk refusing to do something while suffering no actual harm. That leaves modern rockets, the fact that the dumb rockets are being replaced by GPS guided ones implies that they have not improved much. If I càn't find any modern data I may use machine gun accuracy with is about 8 mills, that have about the same range but MG rounds are faster but it's probably the best I can do for now and is sufficient as this is not a key issue in our rules. |
UshCha | 20 Nov 2019 2:29 a.m. PST |
OK so did a bit more 8 mils at 1000m gives 8m diameter. Assuming 50% of shots fall in the area about 20% chance of a hit, now simple scaling me and accuracy falls as tge square of the range so 2000 m it's 5% and 4000m 2.5% and at max range (Hydra Rocket) 1.25%. From that it's clear you need to fire them all (10 TO 20 rockets) at maybe 2000m slant range to get a significant chance of a hit, not near miss) given the uncertainties of sighting, not just the inherent accuracy of the rocket. This explains the big push for guided munitions. Really rockets unguided are OK on buildings and area suppression but not upto much on vehicles. Better than the early missiles but by no means ideal. Probably why the A10 used a gun. One more down for the rules. Hopefully this sheds light on the wargame design process for those thinking of writing their own. |
Wolfhag | 20 Nov 2019 5:04 a.m. PST |
Did you check out the different fusing options for the Hydra? They can do an airburst at a specified range, no need to hit. They have flechette rounds too. PDF link Laser PGM version: link 100% hit capability? That's no fun: link I use a D20 for my games. To get % chances less than 5% if a 1 is rolled, roll the D20 again. A 1-4=1%, 2-8=2%, 9-12=3%, 13-16=4% and 17-20=5%. Wolfhag |
UshCha | 20 Nov 2019 3:43 p.m. PST |
Wolfhag, my intention is to give guided missiles a small chance to miss. Probably similar to guns 70 to 80% hit, lower than manufactures data but that's always a bit optimistic and fits better to the overall model. HE will be dealt with as artillery for damage for simplicity. Again this is a minor part of the model, so it will be a very simplified model. You could make a whole game of ground attack but that is beyond our chosen scope. I am now concerned about dumb bombs, I suspect I have been over accurate so I need to look harder and make it less accurate. To hit a small target you will need more bombs. |
UshCha | 21 Nov 2019 4:14 p.m. PST |
So I think I have the rules pretty much sorted. The last question is where to put them. Our rules sans aircraft work for any model scale. However that is not so for air power, it only works for 12 and 6 mm. 3 mm is incompatible with 3 mm so is not an issue. On that basis I propose to have an almost stand alone section just noting where rules of the main body still apply. Particularly as i would expect most players, most of the time (and that includes the authors) not to be using them. They really only fit in some complex FEBZ scenarios. |
Legion 4 | 21 Nov 2019 4:31 p.m. PST |
We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc. You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, … try again next turn. If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that. If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*. Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx". *And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom ! Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO. You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used. |
Wolfhag | 24 Nov 2019 4:28 p.m. PST |
If you want more detailed info check this out: This report describes LAVP firings of the A-10/GAU-8 weapon system on 4 December 1979 against a Soviet tank company simulated by 10 combat loaded M-47 tanks. The pilots making the firing passes attacked at low altitude and used correspondingly low dive angles in order to simulate movement through a hostile air defense system. Ammunition used in the attacks comprised 30mm armor piercing incendiary (API) rounds which proved to be effective damage agents against substantial areas of the US MK 47 tanks used as targets. The pilots in ten successful firing passes fired a total of 381 rounds of which 139 impacted the targets. Of the projectiles impacting on targets, 22 achieved perforations of the armored envelope. The simulated Soviet tank company was destroyed as a combat formation based on the assessment of damage to individual tanks link Wolfhag |