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"Portrayal of airpower in a ground wargame" Topic


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UshCha08 Nov 2019 2:49 a.m. PST

Our rules review is almost complete. All that is left is airpower; the current rules have neither been used much nor stand the test of time. The problem was that 10 years ago we had dumped 6mm as not being to our taste and we were deeply into 1/72 figures. At such scales a company was almost too big and at least the smaller defenders were a platoon with a few supports. The battlefield was close so without flying high and risking long range AA weapons, there was little use. Asymmetric warfare was not yet in our sights. Even artillery was somewhat an issue at that scale as danger areas cover a not insignificant area of the board in some cases. At this level air power was not an issue particularly as few if any games were at the FEBZ where airpower could be projected in part even if air superiority was not 100%.
Plus in areas of the main effort that are well defended aircraft needed to be no closer than about 14 km to survive against a well-protected unit so will never appear on our tables.

However the rules have excelled there original expectations and at 1/144 scale can cope perfectly with the FEBZ where the airpower environment is more forgiving and so we need to actually add to the existing systems.

Super weapons like laser guide toss bombs and other similar super accurate systems at long range can just be portrayed almost without change, as the system is off board and so simple to model.

Really all we want to cover is low level ground attack, using most probably unguided munitions from both fixed wing and helicopter and Hybrid (VTOL and OSPREY type systems). So what to do? Legion 4's recent comments helped, we have decided in the interests of simplicity without undue inaccuracy, to effectively allow simple AA weapons to just spoil the aim and or drive off air vehicles at best. Simple AAA with or without radar and Man carried missiles will be the order of the day perhaps occasionally a dedicated AFV with specialised AA capability is the absolute limit. At the speeds most air vehicles travel (except helicopters in hover) are so fast they will come and go in a fleeting moment so will have their own, subroutine to resolve the situation before returning to the normal play sequence. The granularity will be large, only a few generic wepons, cannon, macine guns and disposable rockets perhaps the odd guided weapon. Absolutely no air to air disputes and the whole thing needs to be resolved in a minute or two. There are things like dead ground that cause some issues. For instance how much higher than a local obstacle can an air vehicle safely fly? 1 contour (about 8 ft.) seems a bit low but 2 contours may be a bit of a problem for 1/72 as that would mean a flight stand potentially 6 stories or more high. We use 3to 4 contour building and hill and at worst we can have a 4 contour hill with a 3 contour high tree (and that a bit small for a tree). Ten counters at 1/172 does seem a lot. Your view opinions on the basic strategy would be appreciated.

NOTE I have no interest in the approach around parades of minatures that stay on the board for large amouts of time and have little to do with reality, other folk do that better than us.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2019 3:25 a.m. PST

Add in helos, and the occasional A-10 for fun.

The latter can fly down in the weeds, and use trees, hills, and other objects for cover against ground fire.

Tractics did this abstraction quite well.

A simple die roll to see if you have air supremacy, partial dominance, parity, or not. Then, air support is provided accordingly, or not at all.

Bigby Wolf08 Nov 2019 5:14 a.m. PST

I'd never heard the term "toss bombs" before this thread!
Just Googled it and it's legit.
Feeling very happy now, for some reason :-)

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2019 6:19 a.m. PST

Hmm. Well, there's always the cynical ground-pounder's answer:
(1) Die roll to see whether the air power shows up, subtracting for maintenance, bad comms and hostile anti-aircaft.
(2) Die roll to see who--if anyone--they hit, subtracting for terrain, aircraft speed, hostile AAA and weapon inaccuracy, adding for precision munitions, marked targets and--maybe--making some provision for being on the same side as the aircraft. (Never sure how much difference that last makes, though.)

Air power is really good about killing enemies before they get to the battlefield. Air power ON the battlefield varies, and tends either to be so good it spoils the game from a miniatures standpoint, or to just add random death and destruction. Another reason I don't wargame after 1944, and then only in bad weather.

Legion 408 Nov 2019 7:50 a.m. PST

Really all we want to cover is low level ground attack, using most probably unguided munitions from both fixed wing and helicopter

We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc.

You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, frown … try again next turn.

If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that.

If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*.

Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx".

*And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom !

Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO.

You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used.

If so repeat the procedure as above. But you can only roll for loiter once. Then the aircraft go back to base to Rearm & Refuel. But are not brought on the board again.

That pretty much replicates what happens with CAS, ADA, etc. …

contour
Helicopters use Contour[or NOE] they move/fly behind cover, e.g. trees, ridges, structures, etc. and only take fire if in direct LOS. Choppers hover behind cover, then pop up to fire their ordinance. Then go back down behind cover. Once the chopper fires, only then may one unit fire at the chopper then. With a -1 one to hit. That is the way we do it and it is pretty realistic.

UshCha08 Nov 2019 10:35 a.m. PST

Legion 4 the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft?

UshCha08 Nov 2019 11:43 a.m. PST

Robert the die rolling thing is to me is all too often overplayed. If the upstairs thinks its needed, they will pull out the stops to get it. The UK had a Taxi rank of aircraft at call in WW2 so really you would normally expect to get support. Why waste time on that bit of the model if its going to turn up anyway?

Really air power to me is something that can happily fit in the FEBZ and be interesting. In the middle of a big fight at close range it as you say, takes it out of the set of useful games. You could have tactical nukes but that does nothing to help you learn the basics of combined arms warfare. Because you can is not necessarily a driver as to why you should.

Now a big argument can be had as to whether you want to be in the FEBZ, as a modeler perhaps not, its often light equipment well spaced out and perhaps prevents you fielding your latest pointless acquisition that you have spent day or even weeks painting. To a man interested in simulation its engrossing and allow a lot of scope for maneuver and tactics.

Legion 408 Nov 2019 1:23 p.m. PST

the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft?
A chopper can hover over the ground about 1 ft. If need be. So to keep it simple but not too simple. Anytime a chopper is next to cover/concealment that is larger enough to cover/hide the model. Even on a flight stand. It's in cover. It Can't be seen or targeted. If need be take the chopper off the flight stand. While hovering or even moving behind cover. Along it's flight path or where it stops.

Now to deal with speeds.

Flying NOE should be a slower speed, i.e. about 1/2 of max speed.

Contour should be at the top speed.

And in either case you will have to have LOS to target, at anytime. E.g. you could outflank a group of trees spome choppers are hovering behind. I.e. That cover would block LOS from the front but not the flank.

TNE230008 Nov 2019 2:11 p.m. PST

Legion 4 the trick is how far above ground is NOE 2 ft or 16 ft?

per GDW Striker –

a vehicle in
NOE is 4 meters above the ground

Terrain Following is 10 meters above the obstacle it is over

High Mode is 10 meters higher than the tallest obstacle on the battlefield

a vehicle executing a pop up is at what ever altitude it chooses

TNE230008 Nov 2019 2:18 p.m. PST

the chieftain's hatch
'when your tank is attacked by aircraft'

YouTube link

Zephyr108 Nov 2019 3:02 p.m. PST

Your groundscale will determine if the AC even shows up over the battlefield. A strafing AC would start way off the field and 'walk' it's attack across the target area before flying off (I assume you'd agree that placing an AC on the playfield and making an attack at pointblank range is not the 'realism' you're looking for. ;-) A look at gun camera footage of strafing attacks should give you good examples of the ranges involved. Rockets & guided munitions are just another form of strafing… ;-)

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2019 3:31 p.m. PST

Ill differ, Uscha. The British didn't have cab ranks "in WWII:" they had cab ranks of aircraft twice or maybe three times in WWII, which is not the same--late North Africa, the breakout in France and (I think) in the final 1945 thrust. The rest of the time, I may not have been cynical enough.

But when it works smoothly--really there's no game. Can't recall the name of the engagement, but a combat command of the French 2nd DB ran into one of the short-lived panzer brigades in the Lorraine Campaign when the sun broke out. As an example of the proper use of tactical air power, it's outstanding. As a miniatures game, it's not worth putting troops on the table--and I've never seen an example of "cab rank" air which was. The "combined arms" consist of aircraft, spotters and radios.

The better the air-ground coordination, the more you're playing a computer game--or a fantasy one.

It's FEBZ now? Of course. FEBA went the way of FLOT and front line.

ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore08 Nov 2019 4:57 p.m. PST

I my view- this book has basically everything you need to understand airpower in this period-

link

It is a very experienced former military aviator interviewing a range of current military aviators. I can't recommend it highly enough.

However, it might be slightly disappointing from a wargaming perspective- both sides planned to make sure that the enemy had almost no aircraft over the contact battle area. So in a tactical level wargame, almost all airpower effects should be felt indirectly by slowing/eliminating reinforcements, reducing artillery support, etc.

The book indicates that A10s (and maybe Hinds but not Western attack helis) are the only aircraft plausible to see even occasionally over the contact battle area. But everything else was supposed to be hitting targets several Ks and more further back.

That said- I've got lots of planes and helis and use them a lot.

Wolfhag08 Nov 2019 6:33 p.m. PST

How low can you go:
link

Wolfhag

UshCha09 Nov 2019 1:00 a.m. PST

Thanks all for the links I proably For NOE at high speed (proably 100kts or more looks like somewhere between 1 and 3 contours i.e about 8 to 24 ft and possibly even more. So perhaps 1 contour is a bit low but simple. Very Low speed is any height as is Hovee to sat on the ground.

Legion 409 Nov 2019 6:22 a.m. PST

a vehicle in
NOE is 4 meters above the ground
Terrain Following is 10 meters above the obstacle it is over
High Mode is 10 meters higher than the tallest obstacle on the battlefield
a vehicle executing a pop up is at what ever altitude it chooses
thumbs up That sounds like a very workable/useful set of NOE rules.

Plus note in Vietnam[e.g. LZ X-Ray] and later in the Blackhawk Down action, gunships[Huey Gunships, OH6s, etc.] could hover just above ground level, a few ft. or so. And open up with it's MGs, GLs, etc.

E.g. during an FTX in the early 80s with the 101. As a Rifle PL I was running my Plt thru the woods towards the sounds of fire, etc. We got to the treeline/the edge of the woods. An AH1 was hovering there at about 8-10ft., less than 100yds away. In a small open field. With it's chin turret moving back and forth. Demonstrating it's GL & Mini-gun would be opening up on us. Probably killing most of us. huh? frown

We returned & retaliated with flipping him the bird as he moved closer to us. frown

Your groundscale will determine if the AC even shows up over the battlefield. A strafing AC would start way off the field and 'walk' it's attack across the target area before flying off (I assume you'd agree that placing an AC on the playfield and making an attack at pointblank range is not the 'realism' you're looking for. ;-) A look at gun camera footage of strafing attacks should give you good examples of the ranges involved. Rockets & guided munitions are just another form of strafing… ;-)
Yes depending game scale, e.g. in 6mm CAS can make it's gun runs, drop bomb(s), etc. at the range of each of those weapons on the AC.

Note: Strike AC don't drop bombs on top of the target but drops in before it gets to the target. As the bomb literally flies along the flight path and drops altitude unit hits the target.* Hence the use of high-drag bombs. Fins pop out of the bomb to
slow it's decent so the attacking AC is not hit by it's own ordinance blast(!). huh?

*It may look like the CAS is dropping bombs over its own troops. But the bombs as I said fly along the AC's flight path.

The book indicates that A10s (and maybe Hinds but not Western attack helis) are the only aircraft plausible to see even occasionally over the contact battle area. But everything else was supposed to be hitting targets several Ks and more further back.
We used a tactic call a "JAAT" Join Air Attack Tm". Where the AH-1s hovering behind cover, pop-up fire is ordinance, goes back down behind cover.

And quickly A-10s would swoop down, open with their weapons, then get out of the AO. Jinxing, flying behind any higher cover, etc.

The AH1s[later AH64s] would pop-up again, fire, go back behind cover. Note they would probably move to another cover & concealed position. So as not to draw FA, etc.

Then the A-10s would attack again …

Repeat until you run of ammo & ordinance …

The JAAT was designed to assist with stemming the tide of USSR/WP armor/mech forces. That was expected to flood across the IGB if WWIII broke out.

How low would/could they fly ? If the terrain allowed it … well … I was standing on the back of truck with my radio. And the one A-10, flew by close enough for me to see him waving at us … huh?

Even on TMP a former(?) USAF pilot who flew both the A-10 and F-16. Said everything an A-10 could do an F-16 do as well or better … IMO … He should know …

Lion in the Stars09 Nov 2019 12:44 p.m. PST

There are things like dead ground that cause some issues. For instance how much higher than a local obstacle can an air vehicle safely fly? 1 contour (about 8 ft.) seems a bit low but 2 contours may be a bit of a problem for 1/72 as that would mean a flight stand potentially 6 stories or more high. We use 3to 4 contour building and hill and at worst we can have a 4 contour hill with a 3 contour high tree (and that a bit small for a tree). Ten counters at 1/172 does seem a lot. Your view opinions on the basic strategy would be appreciated.

Well, *some* crazy/very skilled helo drivers can get down to within 8 feet of the ground and still fly fast. 160th SOAR, for example.

But 16-24 feet is probably more realistic.

Most fixed-wing airplanes like to keep 50 feet above the ground as a minimum.


NOTE I have no interest in the approach around parades of minatures that stay on the board for large amouts of time and have little to do with reality, other folk do that better than us.

Keeping a model around helps me remember that I have the asset!

Legion 410 Nov 2019 7:09 a.m. PST

SOAR has some of the best helicopter pilots in the world. And is the only Army unit that uses V-22s, AFAIK.

UshCha10 Nov 2019 1:47 p.m. PST

Fog of war is best done for real, forgetting assets is a perfect example, no need for rules, like traffic jams they occur without need for rules if you plan it wrong, just like the real world.

Apache 610 Nov 2019 7:59 p.m. PST

There are huge variants between how various countries and militaries see aviation fires.

Soviet doctrine did not really plan for close air support.

In the US military:
- USAF views Close Air Support (CAS) as something that is done as a last resort.
- US Army sees attack helicopters as a 'separate maneuver element' that executes air interdiction and strike missions. USMC plans for CAS as part of the fire support plan for ground maneuver. Doctrine and training support this employment.

USAF and Army Attack helicopters should rarely be on table, their "effects" would be felt by fewer enemy forces reaching the ground forces security area or main battle area (and/or being delayed and/or disorganized when they arrive), this can be very interesting in a campaign game, but not likely to be very enjoyable.

CAS missions are difficult to coordinate, but have been proved to have large psychological effects on both the supported and targeted forces. Many games model the physical effects, but don't go far enough to model the psychological effects. I'd suggest strong moral modifiers for units that are targeted or see their side being targeted. I'd also recommend strong moral modifiers for the friendly side.

There are also huge variations over time periods, or depending on what systems are available and employed and what the opponents can use to counter that.

Legion 411 Nov 2019 5:47 a.m. PST

USAF and Army Attack helicopters should rarely be on table,
I feel it depends on the scale of course, i.e. in 6mm they work.

CAS missions are difficult to coordinate

Yes, that is why I we use these rules. As I said it FA & CAS are too much "100%" it won't be much of a game. And they will dominate the board. And also not be very "realistic" …

We do it, again for 6mm, only 25% of your total pts value, e.g. 1000 pts So only 250 pts could be used to by CAS and or Of Board Spt, e.g. distance Batteries, Naval Gunfire, etc.

You bring in CAS[fixed wing] on you side of the table. Like any other indirect support, you have to call for it with a die roll. If unsuccessful, … try again next turn.

If successful, e.g. 2 aircraft, move across the board trying to avoid any ADA within range(s). Once CAS [if it] gets to the target [ not shot down!], it drops it load, strafes etc., based on the rules that cover that.

If any ADA fires at the CAS. The CAS may choose to "jinx"[evasive action] to avoid the ADA. That will effect the CAS's ability to hit the target*.
Also Subtract the rolls to hit from the ADA if the aircraft "jinx".

*And subtract for the rolls to hit from the CAS. If it Jinx. Weapons save for Gun/MGs roll for scatter. The Jinxing will effect those Guns/MGs roll to hit Those bombs, rockets, etc.[use burst templates], have to go somewhere. May hit part of the target or hit another or just hit the ground. Boooom !

Once the CAS is expended, the aircraft just pull pitch and gets out of the AO.

You may roll for loiter, so the CAS can be called in on the next turn, but this time only Guns/MGs can be used.

If so repeat the procedure as above. But you can only roll for loiter once. Then the aircraft go back to base to Rearm & Refuel. But are not brought on the board again.

Wolfhag11 Nov 2019 6:20 a.m. PST

I'd have to agree with Apache 6. I abstractly use airpower to attrite and delay reinforcements arriving on the table. I am experimenting with IL-2's using "Circle of Death" and "S-attacks" and a shootout with AAA units on a 3000m table, 1" = 25m.

The Army did use Apache units to attack Iraqi units in an airstrike but they didn't try it again.
link

A sophisticated piece of hardware like a helicopter that takes hits and survives will be a mission kill for up to a few weeks. Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes. One Apache took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines, and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was fit to fly. It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again. The casualties sustained by the Apaches induced a change of tactics by placing significant restrictions on their use. Attack helicopters would henceforth be used to reveal the location of enemy troops, allowing them to be destroyed by artillery and airstrikes.

Thomas E. White, the U.S. Secretary of the Army, stated, "we were very fortunate we didn't lose more aircraft."[12]

link

It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again.

So after one mission, the entire Regiment stood down. I'd think the current strategy would be to use Apaches in a stand-off mission and not get near enemy units.

Wolfhag

UshCha11 Nov 2019 10:46 a.m. PST

In asymmetric warfare air power is not uncommon. 3 para in helm and caller it in with some regularity to get them out of trouble. Sometimes A10's provided by the US and sometimes UK Apatcheies.

BOOK GURKHAS BETTER TO DIE THAN LIVE LIKE A COWARD HAS SOME INTERESTING ACOUNTY.

UshCha12 Nov 2019 7:24 a.m. PST

As usual this is proving harder than I anticipated, particularly for the earlier periods. Having time to sit and think, I am on holiday and the boss is sunbathing, there are a lot of issues that as far as I can see, moast rules fail to address which is why maybe air power behaves better than the real world, like some rules and Tiger tanks.

1) calling air power needs to have some skill as far as I can see. The caller needs to be certain the CAS will be able to identify the target quickly far enough away to make a credible weapons lease. This means the caller will need to advise on the direction of attack. If it's in hill dead ground in one direction the pilot may not see it until too late if he is fast and low level.
2) direction may be critical to avoid friendlies in the danger zone.
3) The caller may need to coordinate fires so that for instance vehicles can be stopped from being open topped and putting up protective fire, to avoid the run being aborted.
4) the caller needs to be aware in some cases where the enemy will be when the attack arrives and may need to either mark the target or at least mark nearby frienlies just before the run.

There may be more, the point is there may be lots of none die type decisions that need to be made tpmake air power credible. To me too many rules concentrate on the benefits of a weapon system and not it's weakness. Even if crudely the weaknesses need to be covered at the same level as the benefits or you end up with the sad tanks beat all syndrome which makes the game pointless for me.

Legion 412 Nov 2019 7:37 a.m. PST

Yes, that attack by the AH-64s, in Iraq was not properly planned or executed, IMO. We were taught to Suppress Enemy Air Defense Systems [SEADS], suspected or known. Along the flight path(s). I think for fear of CD, that didn't occurred. I was a Bn Air Ops Officer, in the 101, this was considered SOP. But I was not there so I don't know for sure ?

Again, I was trained to use JAAT missions[graduated from USAF Firepower Coordination Course/Air Ground Ops School]. And gunships we also used in pop-up attacks as I described. And of course stand-off attacks really was SOP in most cases. E.g. a TOW on a gunship has an over 3700m range.

Again my contention of on a 6mm scale game table. That could be simulated, generally. As well as CAS. Again as a JAAT.

As well was Lift Ships, e.g. UH1s & UH60s in an insertion would have gunships and LOACHs flying ahead of the assault birds. And gunships as flank security and instant fire support if needed …

Of course the tactic on a 6mm table would be to place your gunships behind cover near you board edge. And take advantage of their long range weapons. That goes for on board FA too. And as we know sometimes FA can be used in direct mode. But that would be a rarity, e.g. Berlin, Manila, Korea, etc.

So with FA & mortars on the a 6mm board. Place them behind cover a use them in the Indirect Fire mode. That should be SOP in most cases, like 99% of the time.

And of course we have long range off board fire support as I posted previously. From distant batteries, or even Naval Fire Support.

Again, I'm talking on a 6mm game board.

Wolfhag12 Nov 2019 8:11 a.m. PST

UshCha,
Most of your questions should be answered in a manual.

If you had planned direct CAS you'd most likely have an FO/vehicle attached and maybe something circling nearby ready to drop on short notice.

When calling for non-direct support there may be something nearby that you can claim from another unit because you are in a dire need and priority.

If you are doing a post-1995 scenario you could abstract it to the point of just determining how long it takes for the support to arrive and when it does the target is destroyed. You don't need to roll for accuracy and damage for a 2000lb JDAM. Hellfires did have an accuracy problem according to this article:
link

Wolfhag

UshCha12 Nov 2019 9:33 a.m. PST

Yup even miracle weapons are not so. Interesting documentary on BBC with a challenger 95%+ hit probability on the range that day 8 out of 11 targets hit, Apprently not great but acceptable. So always a bit of a chance of a miss. You are correct Wolfhag newer weapons are just anti tank missiles fired off table or artillery. Hot smoke with chaff will upset almost anything so no different there.

OK so a bit of design work going on to support approximations.

Turn radius pulling 3g's at 457 mph (Mn 0.6 at SL) is approx 1333 m. To be honest at 1/72 assuming a straight path is not at all unreasonable as mostly the pilots don't turn at 3g while deploying ordinance CCI systems excepted and they seem to have fallen out of favour. Slower older planes run straight anyway to srafe. So the path across the board at any 'high' speed must be straight. A reasonable approximation and very easy to model on the table top.

Legion 412 Nov 2019 1:57 p.m. PST

For most CAS you should have to roll to hit and if misses target roll for scatter. As I said the ordinance has to fall/go somewhere.

And when calling for FA, etc. weapons with a bigger blast template should also roll for scatter …

In both situations a Ldr stand or vehicles should make the call. To see if the call is not effected by any number of things. 1 roll should encompass all of those.

The is the call is good. You have to see if the FA or CAS hits the target. With another/more die rolls.

Wolfhag12 Nov 2019 11:45 p.m. PST

UshCha,
In 2017 a buddy of mine was in Yemen and watched the live feed from a drone launching a Hellfire at a guy speeding on a dirt trail on a motorbike. He said the Hellfire hit the rider and the bike went flying up in the air, did a perfect landing and went another 30m before flipping over. I can only think the gyroscopic spinning of the two wheels kept it upright. The Hellfire has had various upgrades so accuracy can vary on scenario date.

It looks as if you have the math figured out. In VN the Marines came in at treetop level to drop 200lb Snake Eyes and napalm. The target was normally a treeline, geographic location or marked by colored smoke. Now they can mark a target and drop an LGB from 20,000 feet.

I'd think a close support aircraft like an A-10 would be jinking while approaching the target, straighten out for the 1-2 second burst at 60 rps and then start taking evasive action. The A-10 gun is accurate enough to place 80 percent of its shots within a 40-foot (12.4 m) diameter circle from 4,000 feet (1,220 m) while in flight. The GAU-8 is optimized for a slant range of 4,000 feet (1,220 m) with the A-10 in a 30-degree dive.

Wolfhag

UshCha13 Nov 2019 2:24 a.m. PST

Wolfhag thanks great data.

Legion 413 Nov 2019 6:48 a.m. PST

Wolf +1

DaleWill Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2019 10:01 a.m. PST

Here's my uninformed take: As a boy growing up in the late 70's my parents had a cottage on Lake Ontario up by Watertown New York. This was before the 10th Mountain Div. moved in. The Syracuse ANG flew A-10's at the time. We would be swimming in the lake and A-10's would fly low enough that the pilots would wave back at us when we waved to them. Seemed like just a few hundred feet up.

Legion 413 Nov 2019 1:49 p.m. PST

Yes, I experienced the same. When working with A-10s at Ft. Drum, NY, in the early '80s.

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