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"Saint Crispins day" Topic


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©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
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French Wargame Holidays25 Oct 2019 12:34 a.m. PST

On a cool misty autumn day 604 years ago a small English army knelt in prayer on Saint Crispin's day, awaiting the outcome of the heralds parley.
For several weeks the English army had been on the move, harassed by the French, now it was time for a stand near the village of Azincourt. The French western army had finally caught up with them.
Soon violent battle would begin and flower of French Nobility would be laying dead upon the plowed fields. One of the greatest victories of the 100 years war would be over, and a period of English dominance would begin.

Words made famous by Shakespeare's play Henry V.

He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian."
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day."
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

I hope very soon to make a pilgrimage to the new museum at Azincourt. I was lucky enough to have visited London tower for the 600th anniversary and seen the grand Perry display, then attended Henry V at the Barbican.

Cheers
Matt

Yesthatphil25 Oct 2019 3:21 a.m. PST

Fantastic words …

Also the anniversary of the Charge of the Light Brigade. and Northamptonshire Day (St Crispin is the patron saint of shoemakers and leather workers and Northamptonshire has always been full of cobblers) …

Cry God for Harry, England and St George!

Phil
Northamptonshire Battlefields Society

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian25 Oct 2019 4:05 a.m. PST

And my wedding anniversary. grin

skipper John Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2019 6:26 a.m. PST

Dude, you got married on Saint Crispins day?

Great idea! You will never join the rest of us that have forgotten the day, much to our regret!!

Personal logo Choctaw Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2019 8:07 a.m. PST

Great post.

Redcurrant25 Oct 2019 3:25 p.m. PST

Britain has the fewest number of bank holidays in Europe. There is the late August Bank holiday and the next one is Christmas, so one in October would be great.

We could celebrate either Agincourt or Trafalgar day, and as a bonus it would annoy the French.

Win-win scenario.

French Wargame Holidays25 Oct 2019 10:44 p.m. PST

Luckily we already have a holiday for Brexit

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 1:33 a.m. PST

Redcurrant, you know there are French members here at TMP who would probably like to enjoy the forum without being insulted simply based on their nationality.

foxweasel26 Oct 2019 2:28 a.m. PST

There probably are, they can probably see a lighthearted joke for what it is as well. Either way, they probably don't need people to be offended on their behalf.

Tin hat26 Oct 2019 3:47 a.m. PST

+1 to foxweasel ! There's a huge history of ribbing and banter either side of the channel.

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 5:03 a.m. PST

Thank you foxweasel for telling me what should offend me, I will post here for further advice as needed.

Sorry guys, I experience discrimination based on my nationality nearly every week, and believe it or not, I cannot peak into the hearts of those involved to discover if they are light or not.

I am not easily offended and in fact it often amuses me people in our age of information can cling to stereotypes as truths. But offhanded jokes like that this, tossed out there without even thinking, create an atmosphere where it is okay to say people from some such country are surrender monkeys, others hotheaded incompetents, and so on.

My thirteen-year-old daughter experiences it every day at school, sometimes even from her teachers who do it inadvertently because it is so ingrained in society.

Donīt propagate it, squelch it instead. Save the jokes for your foreign friends who know you and know you are joking, rather than simply puking it all across the internet. Itīs odious and distasteful and has no place in our modern world.

foxweasel26 Oct 2019 5:22 a.m. PST

No problem, no thanks required.

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 5:25 a.m. PST

I will take the opportunity to thank you again foxweasel for a very revealing response, I do appreciate it.

foxweasel26 Oct 2019 5:33 a.m. PST

Yes, I can see it's revealed me as the shallow, uncaring weasel I am. Again, no thanks required.

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 5:47 a.m. PST

I will neither agree nor disagree with your personal assessment, though it did make me laugh.

skipper John Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2019 6:56 a.m. PST

Hey… I'm on Foxweasel's side!

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 7:51 a.m. PST

skipper John, are you sure you want to proclaim so proudly for all the world to see that you think it is okay to insult people based on where they were born?

I let my daughter read this but unfortunately her response breaks several forum rules and thus must remain unheard. Not that her feelings are of any importance to you anyway.

skipper John Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2019 8:19 a.m. PST

Dude… get a spine. Stand up straight. Be proud of who you are.


I've got Polish and Hungarian blood in me. Who cares what someone else thinks about that, certainly not me.

foxweasel26 Oct 2019 8:32 a.m. PST

Polish and Hungarian, amateur stuff. Try being English, the whole world hates us. Possibly with good reason, but we're proud of it.

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 8:32 a.m. PST

Dude, stand up straight and stop thinking that casually insulting people for who they are is okay. It isnīt.

PJ ONeill26 Oct 2019 1:23 p.m. PST

As an Irishman, I 2nd foxweasel's post :-)

Tin hat26 Oct 2019 1:46 p.m. PST

Welcome to the 21st Century where a millennium of good old banter is now dead.
Replaced by people getting offended on behalf of others, about topics that doesn't actually involve them in the first place.

We'll insult our comrades across the channel if we want to, and we'll damn well expect it back in spades if that quite alright with everyone ?

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 2:31 p.m. PST

And Tin hat welcome to the 21st century where suggesting we treat each other kindly is ridiculed. And I am not personally offended, I just think itīs wrong. Because it is.
And are you trying to suggest this topic is not open to all forum members? Otherwise, then I do indeed think this lively banter does involve me.

My daughter made an interesting point about how this kind of casual nationalism being akin to the same sort of populism that, hypothetically speaking of course, could lead some countries to break bonds and destroy their economy.
I think rather observant for a kid who spent the summer being, if you are to believe some of the locals, a stupid American in Italy and a stupid Czech in Germany.

Tin hat26 Oct 2019 2:39 p.m. PST

It's nothing to do with treating people kindly it's all about learning not to take offence when none is intended.

Texas Jack26 Oct 2019 2:42 p.m. PST

Well, no. Itīs about treating people kindly.

foxweasel26 Oct 2019 3:31 p.m. PST

casual nationalism

There's nothing casual about it. We've fought the French for a very long time, but at the same time we know the French are normal decent people. If we want to take the mick we will, the French do the same to us, we welcome it because it's healthy rivalry and banter. When it stops is when the hatred will start. It's a sad day when adults look to children for their morals.

Hang on, I've just realised what's happening here. A bloke (living in France) posts about remembering the battle of Agincourt and how the English gave the French a thrashing. Another bloke says maybe we should have a bank holiday on that day and it would also annoy the French, because that's quite funny. Someone from a totally different country thinks "I'm offended that these countries that have got nothing to do with me have got a bit of history between them, I'll complain that I'm offended that no one else cares except me and throw a veiled reference to brexit in because that's edgy and modern"

Sandinista26 Oct 2019 4:18 p.m. PST

I agree with Texas Jack. I am originally from the UK and I have seen the casual (and not so casual) nationalism cause fights. The political mess that is Brexit is largely caused from nationalistic views of the world.
Here in NZ, Maori are still badly treated by too large a number of people, where casual stereotyping leads into discrimination.

Ian

Redcurrant26 Oct 2019 4:28 p.m. PST

Just for the record, I am a Scot living in England.

I get ribbed about my nationality every time Scotland lose (so its quite often), but I dont take offense. I get my own back when England lose.

Each Nation celebrates its victories. I have no doubt that the French members of TMP celebrate their victories over the English/British, and other Europeans. You only have to look at the Arc de Triomphe.

We have Waterloo railway station and Trafalgar Square.

Americans celebrate 4th of July, their independence day (from us), but I am not offended by it.

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 12:05 a.m. PST

Hang on, I've just realised what's happening here. A bloke (living in France) posts about remembering the battle of Agincourt and how the English gave the French a thrashing. Another bloke says maybe we should have a bank holiday on that day and it would also annoy the French, because that's quite funny. Someone from a totally different country thinks "I'm offended that these countries that have got nothing to do with me have got a bit of history between them, I'll complain that I'm offended that no one else cares except me and throw a veiled reference to brexit in because that's edgy and modern"

THAT is what you took from this? I am nearly speechless- nearly. If I were the meme type there would be a facepalm inserted here.
So to clarify, no, I did not lie in wait, baiting you skillfully until you fell into my Brexit trap. And as politics are forbidden on the forum, I would not have mentioned it at all. And anyway, the reference to misplaced populist nationalism was a rather keen observation from my daughter, which I simply passed along in more adult terminology. You can learn a lot from children if you bother listening to them by the way, and in this case I feel itīs a nice reflection on the way she is being raised.

And no one I know on the Continent hates Britons for voting to leave the EU. Why would they?

foxweasel, you, Tin hat and Redcurrant all want to change the topic of this disagreement to something you can more easily defend. I have no agenda against the UK, national holidays (the more long weekends the better), the Arc de Triomphe, nor Shakespeareīs work quoted above by the OP (which I find to be the most eloquently exhilarating pep talk ever written- I love it).
Thus when you want to try to change the focus of what I am talking about to these things, I will say what I said originally to Tin hat:
Well, no. Itīs about treating people kindly.

Ian, I congratulate you on having the courage to come out in favor of human kindness, it is a radical position here to be sure.

Redcurrant27 Oct 2019 12:24 a.m. PST

Some people seem to look for opportunities to be offended, in places where no offense was meant.

foxweasel27 Oct 2019 12:27 a.m. PST

Texas Jack, No, it's still about you being offended on other people's behalf. Try reading the 1st paragraph of my last post you selectively quoted.

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 12:57 a.m. PST

Redcurrant, whether or not no offense was meant is hardly an excuse for throwing out blanket insults.
And regardless if every French member wrote here they were not offended and it was all a jolly good joke, propagating this sort of behavior is a blemish on our society.

foxweasel, by referring me to your erroneous stance you are still trying to defend something we arenīt even discussing. And you are still wrong.
If you read my post more closely you will find by my reference to learning from children that I did in fact read all of your post. And if you think being civil to one another breads hatred then I quite literally have no response for such absurdity.

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 1:04 a.m. PST

And Redcurrant et al., this is from the forum rules:

Can I insult some group I don't like?
No. Your gaming group might enjoy your jokes about (fill in the race, ethnic group, nationality, political party, or faction here), but this is an international forum. You should not attack any group that applies to our members. You should also not attack the TMP community itself. [GROUP ATTACK RULE]

I know you will say it wasnīt an attack, and as far as attacks go your comment was exceedingly mild, yet advocating a holiday on the basis that it makes another nation angry is an attack. Of course Bill may not see it that way, and his opinion is the only one that matters, but clearly this issue has come up in the past.

foxweasel27 Oct 2019 1:46 a.m. PST

And you are still wrong.
in your opinion. In fact, I'm highly offended.

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 2:21 a.m. PST

If you are offended then push the complaint button. Itīs the button on the far right of each post.

foxweasel27 Oct 2019 8:02 a.m. PST

No, I'm not a squealing snitch.

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 8:22 a.m. PST

Nor am I, on that we can agree.

skipper John Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2019 2:02 p.m. PST

Hehe… I now know what exactly the "stifle" tab does!
And I like it!!

Texas Jack27 Oct 2019 2:25 p.m. PST

But youīll still unstifle me to read this. evil grin

Personal logo COL Scott ret Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2019 7:56 p.m. PST

I am not sure if this is a tempest in a teapot or a wine bottle, but either way. both of you presumably adults should learn to follow some advice "turn the other cheek" look for a reason to forgive.

I likewise agree with almost everyone who posted about the OP, a great speech, from a great author in a great play. but then again I am an old school lit fan. Additionally my son has been in several Shakespeare plays, so I feel I ought to support his enjoyment of the arts.

Thomas Thomas30 Oct 2019 10:44 a.m. PST

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"

Just recreated the battle using A Game of Knights & Knaves. We recited the great bard throughout. Its one of my standard monologues when I audition for parts (also "O for a muse of fire…"

The French in the play are just the "villains" and are interchangeable for any overconfident foes. The same speech were used to rally Brit troops for the liberation of France from the Germans.

TomT

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