"Flags for a fort in the FIW and AWI" Topic

Hi,

I want to make two more flagpoles for my fort.
As I want to use this fort for both FIW and AWI I would like to know what flags would be the best to use.

I am searching for the following flags:

British flag (FIW and AWI)
French flag (FIW)
American flag (AWI)

Can anyone give me an advice what flags will do best?
Maybe you have a link for the right flags to use.

Thank you very much.

Mike

The garrison flags I have seen in museums were large national flags. So for example, the British garrison flag in the Museo Del Ejército in Toledo, captured at Pensacola during the American Revolution, is a large Union Flag. Of course the Stars and Stripes flown over Baltimore during the War of 1812, now in the Smithsonian Museum of American History, is famous.

Rick

Scroll through here for some unusual flags that flew over AWI "forts."

revolutionarywar.us/flags

Don't forget the British Union Flag changed in 1801 so you need the earlier one for FIW and AWI:

link

At least you don't have to worry about getting that one the right way up.

So to be fussy about names, there was no such thing as a national British flag at the time, only the King's Colours. A water color print from about 1762 or so shows the King's colours flying over Fort Ligonier. I have seen the same for other fortifications.

For American forts, good luck. Again, no such thing at a national flag during the period.

For French, would assume it would be the all white flag. IIRC, the French had to raise a red flag when the surrendered at Fort Niagara.

During the F&I war, the Chickasaw flew a large British Union Jack a their main town/ fort. Also British traders carried smaller flags with them and flew them over a smaller outlying town to show that they were there to trade. I have yet to find writings about Choctaw towns flying French flags over their towns.
Fort Toulouse in Alabama near Montgomery flew the French white with gold fleur de lis over it.

Strictly speaking the Union Flag has no official status in law and is only recognised as the national flag by "custom and practice." You can't go wrong if you use the appropriate flag, whatever you call it, for the period over a Brtish fort.

starforts.com/ligonier.html

As to the American flag, it is generally accepted that on June 14 1777, Congress:

"Resolved, That the flag of the thirteen United States be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white; that the union be thirteen stars, white in a blue field, representing a new constellation."

Generally accepted? By who? The Betsy Ross type flag was not a period flag, except, perhaps for some short-lived Continental Navy ships.

The flag that is flew over Fort Stanwix by the NPS is a combination of 13 stripes of red, white and blue – point being, there was no commonly used national US flag during this period – at least that I have ever seen.

Did I say anything about Betsy Ross? Or any other specific design? Is not June 14 flag day in the United States? Is this not generally accepted enough for you? Did the Second Continental Congress not so resolve to adopt a national flag?

The OP was asking what flag he could fly on his model forts. He could fly the Union Flag on a British fort and any number of designs on an American fort. At any time after it was adopted in 1606, the British flag might be referred to by any number of equally appropriate names, none with any particular status, but it would still be the same flag.

Jog on.

All true, but it doesn't give our OP any clear guidance.

On the British one, it does.

Perhaps you can give the OP some specific examples for the Americans in addition to the Stanwix one.

As to the French, the suggestion of fleurs-de-lys is interesting although the all white flag seems more likely – the famous Trumbull painting of Yorktown clearly shows a plain white French flag on their works although, of course, this was painted some years later.

Perhaps the best advice to the OP is British – pre-1801 Union Flag; French – plain white (or white with f-d-l, per RudyNelson); and American any design you fancy. No one will be able to prove otherwise.

Agreed. I can't think of any artwork off the top of my head depicting American flags flying over their forts. And as we both know, the American flag issue is a hot mess to try to figure out. No doubt, in part, because many of the flags used were state supplied and they did what they liked, or what they had on hand.

If you do a google search, you can find the earlier (and likely more historically correct) version of Trumball's painting that shows a period American flag.

It would appear its time for our annual "Stars and Stripes" debate. The stars and stripes were clearly used as a U.S. national flag on naval ships during the war. There is near contemporary evidence that a stars and stripes flag was flown at Castle William in Boston at the end of the war. There is near contemporary evidence that a stars and stripes flag was flown during the Siege of Yorktown. There is evidence that a nontraditional version of the stars and stripes was flown at Fort Mercer in 1777.

As an alternative there was a striped flag that was supposedly flown at Fort Mifflin in 1777. There is evidence from a powder horn engraving that a Grand Union flag was flown at Fort Stanwix after the siege of that post, making that a possibility. Then there are regional type flags such as the crescent moon flag that flew from Fort Sullivan in Charleston harbor in 1776.

As to which is the appropriate American flag, pick the one you like. If anyone complains point out that you are the commander of the post and can have them flogged.

Bill:

I'm curious what you are citing for the Yorktown flag?

I like the ending of your post. :-)

I am referring to the Simcoe watercolor and the Baumann Yorktown map illustration HG.

Too funny, as I have a print of the Baumann map hanging in my home. Interesting. If you read the background related to it, he finished the map in 1782. Since the drawing is in black and white, it is hard to say exactly what all those flags are, or would look line in color. The one behind the stars and stripes looks like some of the Gostelowe flags. I assume the flags on the left are to represent the French.

I still prefer the colour featured in Trumball's earlier painting of the surrender. I find it…. striking. :-)

If I'm looking at the right artwork, the Simcoe one looks a lot like the early version of the Trumball painting.

Or, maybe not on the supposed Simcoe work -

link