"Two Austrian questions" Topic

I was looking at the Prestento/Perinni link in the battle reports page (which looked stunning – can't wait for the next installment) and I clicked onward to this link with some beautiful photos of these players' Austran collection. A couple of shots caught my eye because I saw some things I hadn't seen before.

One was a base with a Kurassier officer wearing red over-trousers. That was new to me.

The other was a grenadier from a Hungarian battalion (painted with yellow facings and gold buttons, so presumably IR2 Erzherzog Ferdinand) carrying a blue Ordinarfahne instead of yellow. That was a surprise too.

In the comments below, Gonzalvo had asked (back in 2014):
I recall hearing somewhere that one of the Hungarian regiments (with a very wealthy Inhaber ? Esterhazy) got special permission (at a price!) to have flags with light blue grounds as seen on one of the grenadier units here, but was never able to find confirmation of that in writing…

No reply was ever posted. Can anyone here confirm the accuracy of these two details – red coveralls (on any Austrian cavalry) and the use of a standard in blue instead of yellow.

I cannot confirm this – red overalls, unlikely, as well as a light blue ordinaire Fahne

It seemed unlikely to me – red for a German cavalry regiment seemed very unlikely. The blue ordinarfahne I thought may be possible on the basis of Gonsalvo seeming to recall reading something, but again seems unlikely. The Austrian Army seemed to go for (often incompetent) standardisation. They didn't even like flamboyant uniforms for musicians (although some got away with that). A standard in a different colour for a regular army unit seems odd.

I have seen this too but could never find any other reference to it. GMB flags do refer to "the blue one" for IR32 Esterhazy (Hungarian) so maybe then know of a reference?

Hmmm, Interestingly in 1809 IR32 has sky blue facings, not yellow. Oh well, it would have been interesting but it seems increasingly unlikely.

Thanks to those who've responded and, unfortunately, confirmed my suspicions . . .

Cheers,
John

The red breeches were worn by general officers. Often combined in the field with the coat of the man's previous regiment or that of which he was the Inhaber.

Unlike the British Army, regimental facings had no impact or relationship to standards- they were white [fields] for Leibfahne (soveriegns standard) and yellow/ ochre [fields] for the more numerous Regimenterfahne.

As cited above, red full dress breeches were the preserve of Generals and perhaps senior staff wore overalls to distinguish them as well. Wasn't there a Coppens illustration on this?
regards dave

My understanding was that the generals overalls were still grey. I'd be interested to know otherwise. I would have thought red more likely for a Hungarian general than a "German"; The photo was of a Kurrassier officer.

Re the standards, yes, I realise the Leibfahne is white and the Ordinarfahne yellow (with obvious exceptions for some Landwehr etc who had their own localised standards). My reference to the facings is that IR32 Esterhazy has blue facings but the figures in the photo appeared to be IR2 Erzherzog Ferdinand (Yellow facings and gold buttons). Gonsalvo's comment (never answered by anyone it seems) to the effect that there was an exception for IR32 would make for an interesting variation on the table but it would seem the photo is wrong even if this mythical blue standard is real. And of course it raises a second question – Was the Leibfahne also blue?

Does this rumour have a source or is it an internet urban myth???

cheers,
John

PS. Of course in 1809 the battalions only carried one standard each (Leib for the 1st battalion, Ordinar for the others and the grenadiers) but I still have to concede that the collection on that site does look pretty amazing and far better than anything I could ever manage.

I cannot find any evidence of those rumors, in case, it would be helpful to know from where they did origin.

As written above – for the 1792 – 1815 period unlikely.

Hi there,
Maybe I can shed some light on the "Red Trouser" question as happily this is my collection.
The painter & I relied on an elderly Osprey book, possibly Austrian Cavalry(?) to decide on the uniforms. We found a plate or text with the excellent "red trousers" and ran with it! When the post you refer to first appeared the author of the Osprey book apologetically contacted me pointing out his error, new research had proved his work to be erroneous. Frankly we liked the "red trouser" look so ran with it. Who knows, a gregarious colonel might have donned such garb for his last charge?
The blue flag is apparently correct, I forget which regiment, once again if research proves otherwise, the flag stays!
Hope that helps. Enjoy the Prestento/Perrini batrep.
Best wishes,
Jeremy

I took the liberty of contacting Grahame at GMB who replied that this had been on TMP before:

TMP link

That is good enough for me to use a blue flag!
Cheers
Jim

p.s. Jeremy your Austrians are an inspiration

The two blue Ordinarfahnen were from IR32 Esterhazy and covered the period 1802-6. I have not seen them as they were in a recent exhibition catalogue – but this was the very wealthy Esterhazy magnate family! The unit facings are himmelblau, roughly Hungarian trouser blue, so it is probably that shade. I will try to locate them on my next trip out there.

However, the pattern was the 1792 complicated shield on the Doppeladler or the 1806 with the shields round the edge – the 1804 was never issued.

I suppose this red background might be a confusion either with comments about the spiral colours on the staff or a copy of a Hungarian flag from the later 19th century, some of which did use red. It is however most likely to be the Erzherzog Karl Legion flags in MAA299 – either 1st battalion in Plate D3 (reconstructed from a description) or the flag on p.23, which was also carried by an EKL battalion (not 2nd) at Wagram. These peculiar flags, which usually have a background of a single colour or some wide horizontal stripes in two colours (such as the yellow/blue of 2nd batt. EKL at Wagram) with an eagle or shield with Hungarian or local arms on it, are Insurrection or Freikorps units. There are some more, which were phootographed (in b/w of course!) at the 1909 exhibition, which I need to dig out of the Bildarchiv. Amongst those is an 1806 Ordinarfahne from IR16 Lusignan, which only has yellow flames round the outside pointing in.

As Osprey do not seem to want a book on Austrian flags, I will put something in one of the mags one day!

Incidentally, the Grenadier battalions only carried a Leibfahne in 1805 and otherwise, it was just one Ordinarfahne, usually a spare in the depot.

thanks I wasn't aware of that but I will pursue this topic and see if I can find the source of Dave Hollins claim.

I wonder, in case it were only two blue colours, apart from the Leibfahne, what did the other two battalions did carry in 1805 – Imperial Yellow Ordinärfahnen?

Interesting. I wonder how willing the IR32 Inhaber was to hand over those blue standards? They may have kept them a couple of years longer . . .

Cheers,
John

HI Jeremy,
The collection looks amazing and the Prestento/Perrini post looks really interesting too.

Sorry I remain extremely sceptical of such a proposition.
Regardless of the source who "has seen a fragment" (which by definition probably didn't carry an identifier), why such an extreme variation would have remained undocumented by countless authors since.
I smell beige, and it ain't pretty…
d

I found this from Dave Hollins in a 2007 thread TMP link

"Just as a bit of extra info, I was poking about in the KA in vienna a few days ago. One guy had gone through quite a few regt histories looking at the subject of when flags were issued to the infantry. I need to have a look at some bits I have and the OB at Ulm, but as a rule of thumb for 1809, it seems that the German regts generally had the 1806 pattern by then, while the Hungarian units mostly had the old 1792 pattern. Within that, there are variations – IR16 had at least one 1806 Ordinarfahne with just yellow flames on the outside pointing in (ie: no white) and IR32's 1806 pattern standards in Russia have red ribbons from the Crown, not the usual blue. As I mentioned before, no 1804 patterns were issued (except possibly a couple briefly to IR4 at the very end of 1805, but these would have been quickly replaced by the 1806 pattern)."

So if IR32 was carrying the 1806 pattern in 1812 then they definitely weren't still around by then. It is interesting to note that the Germans generally had the 1806 by 1809 but the Hungarians still had the old version. I guess it would mean that if this blue standard did exist it could well still have been in use in 1809.