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"Standards, Banners and Liveries at the Battle of Ravenna" Topic


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11 Oct 2019 9:12 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Comments or corrections?

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP10 Oct 2019 10:48 p.m. PST

Hi,

I'm very deep into Ravenna as I pretty much have most of the miniatures (bare metal!) for this.

The one nagging problem and it's a big one(!) is that I have very little to no information on what Standards, Heraldic Banners and liveries for both sides at the Battle of Ravenna.

Can anyone help me out- I would be eternally grateful!!!

I will post up a list of the protagonists in my next post- or edit this one.

At the moment, I'm so desperate for information that this post is serving as a reminder for me to definitely make the post!! (Hope that makes sense?)

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Martyn K11 Oct 2019 5:31 a.m. PST

There are a lot of wood cuts and other pictures around that show period flags. I will leave it to others to give links to these pictures.

For flags, I and many others use the wide range of flags from Pete's flags for my Italian wars needs. They really are a great product and well researched. They are available from eBay. Just do an eBay search on either "15mm renaissance flags" or "28mm renaissance flags" and they will pop up.

These flags will give your figures a period look.

You can check out some of the flags on my figures at: collegeofkings.com
All of my flags are from Pete's flags.

GurKhan11 Oct 2019 7:18 a.m. PST

Pete at link has a reconstruction of Gaston de Foix's flag at Ravenna. Link looks like the original image it was based on.

I presume you've seen the suggested orbat for the French at link – there's a couple of hints at livery there, Robert de la Marck's company in black-and-white, Louis d'Ars "dit le chevalier blanc" probably in white.

At link is a flag of Louis XII – the King wasn't present but the "Gentilshommes et pensionnaires du roi" and the Archers of the Guard both were, judging from the orbat above, and this might be the sort of flag they'd carry – see also link for the guard archers' livery.

But I think that's all I can do.

mghFond11 Oct 2019 10:58 a.m. PST

Another rousing recommendation for Pete's Flags, I bought them for my Great Italian War collection and just love'em. People always comment on how great they look.

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP11 Oct 2019 10:29 p.m. PST

Hi Guys,

First off thanks to everyone who has answered. Very good of you.

I have known Pete for a number of years via the net and I will be using some of his superb standards and banners on my armies.

The real question that I was asking is, what did the actual standards, banners and livery colours on display at Ravenna really look like in as far as we can tell?

Pete's Flag's are amazing but I don't think even Pete with his vast knowledge of heraldry in the Renaissance has all the answers.

The Commanders I'm looking for are as follows:

French:
Rear (Yves d'Alègre)
1000 Infantry (unknown type and didn't participate)
400 French Men-at-Arms
Vanguard (Alfonso de'Este)
910 Italian Lances
24 guns
Battle (Thomas Bohier)
780 French Lances
Extreme left (Caraciolo)
2000 light cavalry
Arqubusiers
French Crossbowmen
Stradiots
1000 Dismounted archers
Infantry
5000 Landsknecht (Jacob Empser)
4500 Pike and Halberdiers
500 Arquebusiers
8000 Gascons and Picards (Seigneur de Molart)
Gascon Archers [Xbow]
Picard Pikemen
3900 Italian foot (Federigo da Bozzolo)
Pikemen
Arquebusiers
Artillery (Ferrara)
24 Guns

Spanish/Holy League:
Vanguard (Fabrizio Colonna)
670 Papal Lances
Battle (Marquis della Padula)
575 Spanish Lances
Rearguard (Don Alfonso Caravajal)
490 Spanish Lances
Spanish Infantry (Pedro Navarro)
4000 Pikemen
1300 Swordsmen
1300 Arquebusiers
2000 Papal Italians (Ramassot)
1600 Pikemen
400 Arquebusiers
30 War carts
Light Cavalry (Marquis de Pescara)
1500 Light Cavalry
500 Papal Arquebusiers
1000 Genitors
Artillery
30 Guns

Thanks for reading- it is all very much appreciated.

Kind Regards.

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2019 12:23 a.m. PST

Martin K

I think I should mention that every time I click on a page on your College of Kings website the sidebar appears very briefly but then disappears again and does not return!

Must be some kind of glitch as it has not happened on any other websites and my Laptop is quite new.

Just thought I ought to mention it.

Kind Regards

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Malatesta150012 Oct 2019 1:37 a.m. PST

The Lance and Longbow publication: link

Has lots of the flags for the French commanders at Marignano, many of whom were at Ravenna 3 years before. There is also a little bio for each of the commanders and this often states all the major battles they fought in so should tell you if they were present at Ravenna.

The Freezywater flag range has banners for Pescara and Navarro, I think they are conjectural. The banner on the left in this image is Navarro:

picture

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2019 2:53 a.m. PST

Hi Malatesta1500,

Has lots of the flags for the French commanders at Marignano, many of whom were at Ravenna 3 years before. There is also a little bio for each of the commanders and this often states all the major battles they fought in so should tell you if they were present at Ravenna.

I've got the Marignano book and have been a member of the L&LBS for many years. The book was actually written by my mate George but it isn't Ravenna which is what I'm really looking for.

Lovely looking mini's as ever matey- great stuff!!

Kind Regards

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

GurKhan12 Oct 2019 6:22 a.m. PST

Those Freezywater flags illustrated look as if they are just based on the commanders' coats of arms. Those are not hard to find out, but part of Atheling's problem is that leaders aren't necessarily just using their arms on their flags by 1512. For instance Gaston de Foix's flag discussed above has a single bull taken from the two bulls in the arms of Bearn, which formed part of the arms of the Counts of Foix, but it is quite different from the actual coat of arms.

Has anyone seen this book – link ? Looks like it has some illustrations, could be promising – Pietro Compagni's a good uniform artist.

Malatesta150012 Oct 2019 6:40 a.m. PST

Yes a mixture of livery badges and heraldic arms were used, there is a contemporary painting of Pavia where Bourbon is shown using his actual coat of arms but he also had a livery, I think it was a golden hart. Bourbon was present at Ravenna.

What the mercenary companies were flying is even harder to find out especially as it could depend on the personal taste of the captain.

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2019 7:00 a.m. PST

Has anyone seen this book – link ? Looks like it has some illustrations, could be promising – Pietro Compagni's a good uniform artist.

I think I have it somewhere. I'll try to dig it out today to see if it'd be worthwhile.

In the meantime, I found some pictures from discussions by the author and illustrator regarding he book. Some coats of arms are displayed.

link

link

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2019 8:26 a.m. PST

Many thanks Condottiere.

The author of La battaglia di Ravenna nelle arti del Cinquecento. Modelli epici per la figurazione di una battaglia contemporanea, dans D. Bolognesi (coord.), "1512. La battaglia di Ravenna, l'Italia, l'Europa", Ravenna, Longo editore, p. 171-189 just sent me a copy of his book too so it's looking great thus far :>)

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2019 12:36 p.m. PST

Atheling,

I could not find my copy (Amazon tells me I purchased a copy back in 2014), but the publisher offers a digital copy (in PDF form), so I downloaded it. It does not have much by way of heraldry, flags, banners, etc. It does have quite a few good illustrations. For 16 euros I thought it worth the purchase. It has a large list of protagonists, et al.

link

Cheers.

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP13 Oct 2019 2:21 a.m. PST

My thanks again Condottiere and Malatesta1500!

You have been of great help- it's all very much appreciated.

I put in a very large order to Steel Fist Miniatures yesterday to go along with my Foundry Landsknechts. There will be as many conversions as I can fit in but as the game is planned for Partizan next year I'm quite short on time.

I was also looking at the Eureka Gendarmes/"Archers". They seem like really nice miniatures except for the heads. I suppose it would be an easy job to exchange the Eureka heads with that of some of the separate heads from Steel Fist- what do you think?

Kind Regards

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Malatesta150013 Oct 2019 5:33 a.m. PST

I like the Eureka figures but they are quite small, I am not sure if the Steel Fist heads would be too big or not but they may work. You would certainly need the horses in separate units due to the size. I used them for my early 1500s mounted crossbowmen and the perry plastic heads fitted them really well: link

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP14 Oct 2019 1:06 a.m. PST

Malatesta1500,

I used them for my early 1500s mounted crossbowmen and the perry plastic heads fitted them really well: link

One look at the first pic on your blog showing the Perry Heads has convinced me that you are right. I'm much better going for the Perry Heads, being plastic they easier to convert if need be, they certainly look more in tune with the size of the mini's.

Kind Regards

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Oct 2019 2:13 a.m. PST

What the mercenary companies were flying is even harder to find out

The Landsknechts under Empser were on official loan by Maximilian, and so flew the Imperial colors – as can be seen on this depiction of Ravenna:

picture

The Burgundian (flamed) cross was used by Maximilian. Only later (undrt Charles) would it become a symbol also used by the Spanish.

The other flags would be for possible for Empser and certainly for the companies, or "Fähnlein" that made up the composition of his force. I would expect one flag for each company in the block, so around 500 men for around 10 more flags (which need not show up on a table which is scaled down anyway).

This image gives a good impression on how flags would show up distributed in a larger block:

picture


Afaik the actual flags are not well documented by Fähnlein, and widely differed due to the background – history, commander, financee, region, eg – for the unit. Much goes here, though stripes, cross or bars on plane, divided or quarted background are typical, sometimes with a symbol added – which on the other side covers much of the heraldic anyway. If you need inspiration look at contemporary battle scenes.

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Oct 2019 2:33 a.m. PST

On an afterthought..
the Landsknechts units fighting at Novarra – after the recall of the Imperial forces by Maximilian – would be the same (if not all of them) as at Ravenna, though now under French pay and service and without the Imperial symbolic.

I only found two depictions of that battle on a quick search, and one does not contain details. On both, however, the horizontal stripes show up, indicating an important flag – perhaps a common unit flag, or Empsers personal flag that his successor continued to use.

picture

picture

Atheling Supporting Member of TMP14 Oct 2019 2:46 a.m. PST

Thanks Puster.

The first image is the header for my Gwevalthaufen blog :>)

The others I have seen before but your description does help add clarity so many thanks.

Just Add Water Painting and Wargaming Blog:
link
La Journee HYW Warfare- Painting & Wargaming Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen- Late C15 to Early Renaissance Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

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