"Does Anybody Still Play Starfire?" Topic

As I've been getting back into ancients miniatures gaming, I've awakened a lot of other old interests. One of the games I always loved was Starfire (all the way back to the original pocket game version, which I still have). It seems to me that it could be easily modified to play with miniatures and without a hex grid, and I know there is a new version out, but is anybody out there still palying it? Full Thrust seems to be an awfully popular set of rules right now, too. Has anybody compared the two sets? Thanks!

I used to love Starfire, but didn't keep up with it. I agree it would be an easy conversion to miniatures, even retaining the hex grid.

What is Starfire?

fritz: Starfire (the version I know and love) is a starship combat game. There is minimal record keeping so allows for large number of ships to be used in a single combat. Imperial Starfire was a campaigh-type game which allowed for tech development and what not.

elsyrsyn: What miniatures would you use? As there could be upwards of 20 or more ships on a side with no problem (perhaps upwards of 100 with multiple players and a large board). I'd think you'd want them to be smallish (more like the recent Starblazers or Bab5 Fleet Action scale than Star Fleet Battles or Battlefeet Gothic).

Also, what type of movement would you want to go with? At first glance, hex to inch movement is a snap, but it may not be so cut and dried. Serious though needs to be put into that. I find that movement is the hardest aspect of space/naval/aerial combat to pin down for a miniatures game.

Just a few thoughts. Let us know how your thinking comes out.

Back when Starfire was new, there were even a miniatures line for Starfire. Each miniature was between 1" and 1.5". There was a hole in the underside of each unit so that it would fit on a plastic base. I still have mine somewhere in the garage.

Starfire can be found at starfiredesign.com/starfire

It is not a miniatures friendly game in it's campaign form. You can easily have hundred plus per side battles. Starfire is currently in 4th edition called Gallactic Starfire. It's aimed more at empire building than tactical gaming. Though the tactical game has very good and ever evolving tactical rules. It is a player driven environment.

Current version has lost a lot of its appeal for me. I liked the old "ziplock bag" days, when there were fewer ship systems and less record-keeping. Not the most sophisticated tactical game out there, but a satisfying way to spend an afternoon. The alphabet string damage system was quite clever.

Doesn't hurt that David "Honor Harrington" Weber is a fan of the game, either.

There's a campaign starting locally, if by any chance you're in upstate New York.

jdarnold:

I haven't looked into the miniatures available too much yet. I have scanned the GZG website, though, and I very much like some of their ships. Just how big are the Full Thrust ships? One the other hand, I would also love any excuse to order up a new fleet of the Starline 2400 Lyran ships. I always liked the look of those, but Star Fleet Battles is so ridiculously complicated I gave up on it after shelling out a fortune for the new rules (and the 3 binders to put them in).

For movement, I had figured on a simple hexes-inches conversion and the use of hex bases (and possibly templates if necessary) for turning and firing arcs. Something like: speed 1 encompasses anything under or equal to 1 inch, speed 2 covers 1+ to 2 inches, etc., and similarly a 1 hex side turn is anything from 1 to 60 degrees. In a worst case, I could use a hex map, but I'd rather not. It messes with the aesthetics, and we're all about the visual impact or we'd be playing with counters.

Having scanned the freebie stuff available on the web for Full Thrust, such as the More Thrust supplement, I get the feeling that Starfire is the system I would rather use. One - it's familiar. Two - it was one hell of a fun game. Three - it played FAST. Four - it was perfect for 4X campaign gaming. On that last note, supposedly in the new Galactic Starfire edition you no longer have to be a CPA to run a campaign. Wouldn't that be nice?

David Weber isn't just a fan of the game; he *designed* the boxed version published in 1992.

Having said that, I'm not much impressed by that version; I found it to be rules heavy (67 pages of minutia, exceptions, and exceptions to exceptions... gaah!), and as such almost instantly lost any interest in playing it. I also have a quibble with the "tactical" scale of the map: each hex equals 150,000 kilometers of space, and weapons have ranges up to 60 hexes, or 9 million kilometers. Right.

I'd be interested in seeing earlier versions, particularly the "pocket game" version mention by others.

For a miniatures game, stick with Full Thrust. Starfire in it's latest versions is more suited to empire building/economics.

David Weber and Steven White trace thier design envolement back to the original campaign rules of first edition. David is nolonger envolved in the design and support of the Starfire game but still writes in the "original" history universe. He and Marvin Lamb (owner of Starfire Design Studio) worked that out a few years ago.

Starfire has evolved into a game that is directly maintained by it's core group of players.

Starfire is a spaceship combat game. When I was in college (many, many years ago) we would play that all the time. It has a pretty simple record-keeping system but allows you to create your own ships.

We used it in college to conduct epic battles for our Traveller roleplaying universe.

Starfire? Ahhhh...very fond memories. I too like the older pocket version better and have continued to search for a miniature system that is as simple, easy to play, and fun. I even tried converting the rules to miniature tabletop play but they really did'nt work.

I finally invested in Full Thrust and find that it is Probably the closest thing out there to Starfire for ease of play and the number of ships that can be controled per person. I still find the damage rules a little wierd and unsettling but the games go quick and there are a lot of people playing it.

-MM

I too have fond memories of Starfire. What a game! Haven't played it in a LONG time, however. Maybe it's time to dust it off.

As an aside, the Starfire books by David Weber (In Death Ground, The Shiva Option, Crusade, etc.) are all PHENOMENAL.

elsyrsyn:

The GZG ships range in size from .75" to 3", depending on size class, etc. Some are very cool (Kravak, NSL), some are just odd (Phalons).

By all accounts Jon Tuffley and the rest of the crew at GZG are prompt, professional and friendly. I am a huge fan of Stargrunt (15 or 25/28 gropound combat) a slightly less huge fan of Dirtside (6mm armor ground combat) and a so-so fan of Full Thrust. If you do order figures from GZG expect them within 10 day's time.

Old zip locks RULE ...Great game stopped after stare fire !!

I can attest to the efficiency of GZG. Ordered Full Thrust and friends on a Monday night. It was in my hands Saturday morning - in the US. Very good for international mail. Now I want Star Grunt!

Yep, I would agree that the old pocket game version was the best, both Starfire and Starfire 2 were excellent games - I still have them both somewhere. What I liked best was they both introduced new weapon systems as part of the 'historical background', which the boxed set was sadly lacking in until 'The Stars At War' scenario book came out.

I'm VERY GLAD I still have the original games.

Bob

mikeah:

How did you like Full Thrust? I'm thinking I may end up purchasing it, since it seems to get a lot of glowing recommendations. I'd be interested in your opinion, since (1) you're a new player of the system, and (2) I think I recognize you from the MoA group (and if so, that gives us 1 game system we agree on, so I'm fairly likely to agree on this one, as well).

all:

The points made about Starfire using a boatload of ships (pun intended) on the table are well taken - in campaign mode fleet actions of 100+ ships per side are not at all rare. Not very miniatures friendly, especially as I have a hard enough time finding time to paint up the ancients minis on my desk.

Are there campaign rules available for Full Thrust? Also, the system is supposed to be very adaptable - just how easy is it to set up for a background other than the semi-official GZG universe? If it's easy, I suppose I could migrate it to the Starfire universe and have the best of both worlds.

Thanks.

We love it. Fast, fairly easy, adaptable in the extreme. No charts or tables needed to play. You may want to photocopy Ship Status Displays.

Go to the GZG website or go to the Unofficial Full Thrust Web Site and download all 4 PDF's for MORE THRUST. It's out of print but available for free download. This will give you a fair view of Full Thrust. I also got the 2 Fleet Books which I recommend, particularly for the additions in FB 1. I love the Critical Systems rule in FB1, despite rolling a triple 6 on my first threshold point in my last game. Excellent feel.

My favorite features are 1) No charts required 2) No stinking hexes 3) just a couple of 6 sided dice for everything 4) No stinking hexes 5) Ease of play, real sci fi flavor. 6) No stinking hexes.

Mikeah, don't Critical Systems only take checks starting with the second threshold point, and then only a six? I seem to rember them being tougher than normal systems.

elsyrsyn, FT has very simple "historical" campaign rules in the main rules, which you could adapt for more generic use. The game system itself is more tactical than strategic in orientation.

Starfire's campaign system could be tweaked to use FT as the tactical rules pretty easily, mostly a matter of deciding how Starfire MegaCredits relate to FT point costs and how much FT Mass makes a Hull Space in Starfire. FT lacks Starfire's tech advancement concepts, though, and you'll probably want to reduce the number of ships being built (by playing with Mass/Hull Space ratios when you translate) to make the battles manageable. A Starfire game with a 150 ships in the sky is long but playable...a Full Thrust game of the same size would be a nightmare.

BTW, Starfire uses a fixed warp point system for FTL travel, which means attacks on fortified transit routes are a common, exciting, and bloody part of a strategic game. I would think playing a warp point assault using FT rules would be an interesting experience even outside of a campaign environment. The vector movement system will make it harder for the defense to stick close to an attacker, but the initial knife fight at the warp point will make a lot of the secondary FT weapons (subpacks, needle beams, pulse torps) a lot more effective.

I believe that the first version of Mr.Weber's rules was a
pocket game that was called Starfire 3: Empires. I don't think that the boxed set that came later was solely written by Mr.Weber.

Not according to the rule I (and my partner in crime read). Nope, we like it. 6 on the first, 5 and 6 on the second, and so forth. Ends a game real fast if you roll lousy.

At this point that's the way we are playing it. Why should a bridge be any different than any other system? On all ships I see, the stupid morons put the window laden command centers on the most exposed part of the ship. Star Trek? Babylon 5? Which ones don't? Look on any model.

Mikeah (OT): Darn it, you made me go look. FB1 says Core Systems roll for threshold damage at +1 to the target number, and specifically says they therefore aren't at risk on the first set of rolls. Some meeble about key systems being protected deep in the hull, etc. Like all FT rules, feel free to ignore it, but be aware that you may get some raised eyebrows from people outside your current play group, as you would with any house rule.

Personally, I think your way may be a possible balancer for the "bigger is better" problem. Have to try it myself sometime and see.

I just looked at my Phalons, BTW. No window-laden command centers there...

You are right. But, We like the way we do it so we probably won't change it. Makes for a great deal of drama "Captain - We have a core breech in progress!". What makes it better is my ability to roll triple 6's at just the right moment. That's and Jims reluctence to abandon the ship. No problem for me.

What we need is to have the explosion capable of doing damage like a Nova gun. Adds a new dimension to the game. Maybe even let an exceptional Captain steer his crippled ship into the enemy. (not possible if Command is hit also)

May be of interest that the new free simple intro set of rules for Solar Starfire at about 11 pages, and come in both Hex and Miniatures versions:
starfiredesign.com

I have the original three zip-loc games, but am going to try this new version. Will be posting here:
link